# NDE, I had one, has anyone else? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411 "2009-02-11T19:15:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/121 "2009-02-13T15:27:52Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > If how you remember it is how it actually happened, that’s the most extraordinary thing I have ever heard of. No, I do not remember it, I was out cold, literally. My wife was present and relayed all of it to me. Could she have gotten something wrong, sure its possible. What I remember; Knowing my van was hit in the rear and the van going out of control, feeling intense pain and telling myself to go limp, then nothing until I woke up in the ambulance, to a screaming crying wife. A policeman visited me in the hospital the next day and told me he measured my body as 137 feet from the wrecked van on the pavement, checked my pulse, and went to see if there was anyone he could help. My wife was still in the van, and he helped her get out whereapon she went to me and began cpr. When the EMTs showed up they continued the CPR and applied the paddles to me after cutting my clothes off. After some time passed they covered me up and eventually loaded me in the ambulance with my wife and daughter that were in the van also. Daughter suffered no injuries at all. My son was also thrown from the van and was knocked out but no permanent injuries, I had two broken knees, one broken ankle, cracked shoulder, dislocated arm, and muscles tore from my scapula and approx 80% bruising including a concusion from hitting the windsheild and the pavement. I don’t know how long I was dead or even if I was really dead, but the EMTs thought so. The policeman let me know he had been chasing a GTO going about 110mph when the car struck me in the left rear while I was doing 50 mph. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/122 "2009-02-13T15:33:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And in this case, that would be you. You can’t simultaneously be a bold defier of orthodoxy, and then turn around and justify your position by saying that billions of people agree with you. The “there is no such thing as a soul” IS the unpopular viewpoint. > > \*I’m not saying billions of people agree with me. I’m saying that billions of people don’t agree with you. > “They laughed at Einstein !” > “Yeah, but they laughed at Bozo the clown too.” > \*WTF? They laughed at the Marx brothers, too. What’s that got to do with the color of the moon? > Mystical claims like yours are firmly in Bozo territory, not Einstein territory. > > \*Albert Einstein: > The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness.That’s ridiculous. Of course there’s a connection; if there’s nothing there but biochemistry, then of course there’s nothing else. By definition. > > I can also say that throughout history, the people who make mystical claims have always been wrong. And I can also say that the evidence is that such claims are simply impossible. And I can say that the people who make such claims can’t even agree with each other. And I can also say that there’s simply no reason to consider such mystical claims as being necessary to explain anything. > > \*Let’s see: 1.Mystical claims always been wrong > 2.such claims are simply impossible > 3.people making such claims can’t agree with each other > 4.not needed to explain anything. > > 1. I bow before you, Omniscient One > 2. They are simply impossible according to what you know as of today, but necessarily tomorrow or the next century or whenever. Remember, you’re the one that’s supposed to be open minded. > 3. Many of the different factions can’t agree with each other on the particulars or the flavor or the color or what not. But they do all agree that there is something greater than and beyond man. > 4. They are needed as attempts to explain the meaning of life, the universe and everything. Who am I, what am I and why am I. So far science has figured that out. So in the mean time, the mystical will pick up your slack until you catch up to speed. > And I have never said that my “model is the complete, total, absolute, supreme be all-end all to to this thing we call life or existence”. I’m saying that yours is stupid, irrational, baseless, worthless, and has as much chance of being true as the Flying Spaghetti Monster has of being the Supreme being. And I’m saying that if and when my view of the world is superceded, it won’t be by a mystical one like your unless we collapse back into primitivism. > \*You, by you, I mean the other posters on your side of the fence have been say exactly that “yours” is the only one, the complete and final one, case closed. > Again, garbage. Falwell and his fellow believers push mystical nonsense for which there is zero evidence; I am following the known scientific facts. Science has a long history of discovering the truth; mystical claims, like your and Falwell’s have a history of millenia of being wrong. > \*You, yourself, are pushing scientific orthodoxy about their not being anything other than the biochemical model with a mechanistic universe without enough proof to say so definitively. Just for your enjoyment. [Albert Einstein Quotes on Spirituality](http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/einstein.htm) > And the fact that so many people disagree with me is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. What matters are the facts, not the number of people who are ignorant or fools. > > Of course. Considering that those billions of people don’t even agree with each other, the chance of them being right is zero. And unlike every single one of them, _I have facts on my side._ They have none at all. > > \*You have some facts, but not all of the facts, but you make claims, assertions and statements as though you do. > Again; there is not only no evidence for such things as gods and souls; there’s no evidence they are even possible. Going by the evidence, they are impossible. > > \*There is no evidence that you can provide that there is not a metaphysical aspect to existence/reality. Currently, the SM is not a big enough yardstick > to measure life, the universe and everything. > You are the one making the claim that something exists; it is your job, not theirs to come up with evidence. > > Irrelevant; once again, numbers don’t matter. A billion fools are still fools. Let’s see, we’ve got one guy saying one thing and a billion guys saying some contrary. The billion are arrogantly saying the one is a fool and the one is saying the billion are fools. It’s kind of a mirror image type thing, isn’t it? Now, me, I take the stance that the only thing I know for sure is that I don’t know anything for sure. That keeps me open to all possibilities. I don’t have as great a need for cognitive closure as you do. Just for funnsies, check this out and see if you can recognize yourself. [http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble\_with\_atheism.php](http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble_with_atheism.php) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/123 "2009-02-13T15:37:52Z")
You’re making what’s called an argumentum ad populi, **jakesteele**. A billion people can certainly be wrong. It’s not as if that’s never happened before and isn’t going on now - for one thing, it appears there are billions of both atheists and theists in the world and it’s likely at least one of those positions is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/124 "2009-02-13T15:40:32Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > Let’s see, we’ve got one guy saying one thing and a billion guys saying some contrary. The billion are arrogantly saying the one is a fool and the one is saying the billion are fools. It’s kind of a mirror image type thing, isn’t it? Now, me, I take the stance that the only thing I know for sure is that I don’t know anything for sure. That keeps me open to all possibilities. I don’t have as great a need for cognitive closure as you do. > > Just for funnsies, check this out and see if you can recognize yourself. > [http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble\_with\_atheism.php](http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble_with_atheism.php) I may be wrong, but I think you and \*\*Der Trihs \*\*share more common ground than you are both willing to admit. **DT** says there is no evidence, you say you don’t know anything for sure. I think you two should go out someplace and have a beer. ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/125 "2009-02-13T15:46:38Z")
Speaking of which, happy fucking Valentine’s, motherfuckers. I’m outta here. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/126 "2009-02-13T19:17:34Z")
> [@Mellivora\_capensis](#): > > The problem is that it is very difficult to provide evidence of experiences. One can provide evidence of an event, but not necessarily the evidence of an individual’s _experience_ of that event. For example, a beautiful woman walks into the room. It just so happens that she is my ex, who I might still be in love with. My experience of this event would be completely different to the experience of my current girlfriend, who is also in the room. Both of us have had an experience, but they are vastly different, and there is no evidence to compare. > > As far as I know, there is evidence of the activity called dreaming. Electrodes and whatnot can be attached to the brain and register the activity that produces the dreams. However, I’m not aware of any machine or technology that can transcribe that activity onto a screen, so that all can see the dream pictures. We all dream, but we cannot see each other’s dreams. > > So, we are stuck with hearsay. We can only go on what the person who has the dream tells us about the pictures. This doesn’t, however, negate the fact that _something_ has happened, and _something_ has been experienced. It is the value and the meaning we attach to that experience that we all seem to end up fighting about. > > Which, in my mostest humble opinion, is speculation and pointless. We are all going to get that answer one day, so what is the point in endlessly speculating? > > This goes for NDE’s as well. It is an intensely personal, private and unquantifiable experience. The mistake we make is to try and share NDE’s like we share our favourite DVD’s. The fact is we cannot share them, they are currently not available on disc anywhere. At most we can relate the experience, and hopefully find those who have had similar experiences, but we cannot share the actual, individual experience. > > Yet. Nobody’s asking him for evidence that he had an NDE - we all believe that. We’re asking for any reason _at all_ to believe that it wasn’t just some wild mental experience, like unto a dream. After all, we know dreams happen. Souls…not so much. So far, we’ve had the ‘it’s really trippy’ argument, the ‘humans and furbys must have souls because they act different than rocks’ argument, and now he’s giving us the argumentum ad populi argument (also known as the ‘stars are really tiny things floating only a little ways above the earth, because lots of people thought that was true once and this is a democracy dammit’ argument). All of these are, of course, garbage arguments, when faced with the real fact that we know people have dreams, and that he woke up and claimed to have something that looks like a dream, quacks like a dream, and has webbed feet like a dream. Really, it doesn’t matter much if he thinks that he has some kind of nonsensical soul, besides that it paints a target on his forehead for organizations that might want a tithe of his money. (Assuming he isn’t already snared in such an organization, that is.) It also wouldn’t matter if he thought the smurfs were real, that gravity is the work of invisible goblins holding things down, or that there was no such place as australia and that all references to it were a grand conspiracy of misinformation. But for those of us interested in the _truth_, we require more than a trippy dream, or billions of people repeating the guesses of bronze-age tribes, before we decide to accept a belief. We want evidence. And regarding souls, the evidence is uniformly that your brain is your mind, and when the grey matter spatters, the game is over. And happy V-Day to you, too. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/127 "2009-02-13T19:28:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s funny. I thought you said that your experience wasn’t anything like taking drugs before. _Massive_ amounts of _all kinds_ of hallucinogenic drugs. Some taken before your NDE, most taken after. Nope, I can’t see how that could _possibly_ effect your perception of your experience during the event, or your memory of it afterwards.\* > \*FYI-_that_ was sarcasm. 🆒FYI: That was being facetious Nope, my experience wasn’t anything like taking drugs before. And I can’t see how anything could possibly effect your perception except for, hopefully, this: [http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble\_with\_atheism.php](http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble_with_atheism.php) ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/128 "2009-02-13T19:44:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If a classification of people who are virtually always wrong don’t qualify as “fools”, then I can’t think of anything that does. They aren’t just fools, but some of the most foolish fools ever, to fall for garbage with such a track record of failure as mysticism. Atheists constitute relatively small percentage of the population of the planet yet manage to make as much noise as the rest. Is the the voice of reason the world is hearing or just the bigoted (intolerant of other viewpoints different that their own.) I know which one you’re going to pick. Couple of quick things for you. [http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble\_with\_atheism.php](http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble_with_atheism.php) Mr. Al Einstein: Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive for truth, beauty, and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated. The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that is there. 5 ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/129 "2009-02-13T19:58:58Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > Atheists constitute relatively small percentage of the population of the planet yet manage to make as much noise as the rest. It is ridiculous nonsense to assert that atheists “make as much noise” as theists. Absolutely, totally, ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/130 "2009-02-13T20:44:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; we simply ask for some evidence. Which people who make claims like yours can never come up with. I have said time and time again that I can’t prove that it did happen the way I perceive it to have happened. And I have also stated over and over again that you guys can’t necessarily prove or disprove what I am saying with what you have. Now, please note, I have used the word “necessarily” Here’s what I don’t necessarily go along with you on: You think in absolutes; black and white, either/or, all or nothing. You will emphatically state that you are not making assertions, allegations, claims, hypothisizing, conjecturing, specutlating or postulating. You say you are stating some facts that have been quantified, i.e., there is a biomech process that completely ceases when the charge is cut. Then you state as fact, that therefore, one can conclude that there are no metaphysical aspects to existence. You start with quantifiable facts and then you leap to unquantifiable conclusions that are not necessarily part of the facts. You don’t know for absolute fact, beyond all reasonable doubt, if there are metaphysical aspects or not. What you do know is that the biomech process is an integral and critical part of being alive. You keep asking for proof. I have told I don’t have any. I told you I had an experience that I perceived to be the real deal. Now I ask you for proof of your conclusion (“because of this, therefore that.”) Because these quanifiiable bioelect facts are required for all living organisms, therefore, there is nothing metaphysical to existence. I think I posted this to you before but I’ll do it again just in case. [http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble\_with\_atheism.php](http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble_with_atheism.php) Prince Albert E. Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive for truth, beauty, and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated. The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that is there. 5 ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/131 "2009-02-13T21:21:01Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > or that there was no such place as australia and that all references to it were a grand conspiracy of misinformation. I think you’ll find that is Belgium. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Public\_Animal\_No.9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Public\_Animal\_No.9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Public_Animal_No.9)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/132 "2009-02-13T21:25:04Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No such thing exists. There is no animating “force.” … Proof? Before the 1860s, there was no such thing as radio waves, at least as far as anyone knew. Maxwell predicted their existence in the 1860s, and Hertz demonstrated that they did indeed exist in the 1880s. The fact that they were not included in our understanding of the universe prior to 1860 does not mean they did not exist before then, just that humans had no clue about them. It’s appropriate to say that we have not been able to measure anything that would confirm the existence of a “life force,” but to say that it simply does not exist assumes that all the processes that are involved have been discovered, even if not fully understood. This argument borders on trying to prove that something does not exist, which carries with it its own problems, but I’m always very skeptical of any argument that similarly borders on the premise that we know all there is to know. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/133 "2009-02-13T21:32:17Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > I think I posted this to you before but I’ll do it again just in case. > [http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble\_with\_atheism.php](http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble_with_atheism.php) > > Prince Albert E. > Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive for truth, beauty, and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated. The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that is there. 5 Really like that last paragraph, it convinces me your experience was real. But then I have been there. I believe you are wasting your time and efforts here. All will know the truth in time. Start a blog or web site. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/134 "2009-02-13T21:33:26Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I believe you are wasting your time and efforts here. Hasn’t stopped you. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/135 "2009-02-13T21:41:38Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > You don’t know for absolute fact, beyond all reasonable doubt, if there are metaphysical aspects or not. Of course I do. One more time. There is no evidence that your “metaphysical aspects” are even POSSIBLE. > [@Mellivora\_capensis](#): > > The problem is that it is very difficult to provide evidence of experiences. It’s not that hard if the experience is due to something objectively real. After all, that’s one of the major reasons we can use our subjective viewpoints to agree on an objective world at all; we normally all agree that we see the same thing. That’s why I keep pointing out the fact that people who claim to have mystical experiences don’t even agree with each other; which is what you can expect from internally generated delusions or fraud, and not an objective reality perceived through exotic means. Nor do they even come up with information that they couldn’t have gotten by ordinary means; another bit of evidence that it’s not some sort of perception, but delusion and fraud. > [@jakesteele](#): > > Let’s see, we’ve got one guy saying one thing and a billion guys saying some contrary. The billion are arrogantly saying the one is a fool and the one is saying the billion are fools. It’s kind of a mirror image type thing, isn’t it? Not even close, since all the facts are on my side and none on theirs. Once again; numbers have nothing to do with truth. I am not the one making claims that violate known physical laws with no evidence. Nor does my side, the physicalist side have a 100% history of being wrong. Theirs does; claims of mystic forces and gods and such ALWAYS turn out to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/136 "2009-02-13T21:56:12Z")
> [@Public\_Animal\_No.9](#): > > Proof? Before the 1860s, there was no such thing as radio waves, at least as far as anyone knew. Maxwell predicted their existence in the 1860s, and Hertz demonstrated that they did indeed exist in the 1880s. The fact that they were not included in our understanding of the universe prior to 1860 does not mean they did not exist before then, just that humans had no clue about them. > > It’s appropriate to say that we have not been able to measure anything that would confirm the existence of a “life force,” but to say that it simply does not exist assumes that all the processes that are involved have been discovered, even if not fully understood. > > This argument borders on trying to prove that something does not exist, which carries with it its own problems, but I’m always very skeptical of any argument that similarly borders on the premise that we know all there is to know. The proof is that everything, mind and memory and emotion and even consciousness, has been demonstrated to be an emergent byproduct of the brain. If your mind were located in some ephemeral spirit, then getting you drunk would not make you surly, giving you coffee would not wake you up, and clocking you on the head would not cause a loss of sense of time (at worst, you’d be cut off from your senses, but you’d still remain aware of the passage of time while your body was insensate). Thus, it’s not just a matter of ‘we don’t know, therefore every ridiculous notion remains possible’. We do know. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/137 "2009-02-13T22:39:13Z")
I’ve never had one myself but have had OBEs, and I know exactly what the OP is getting at in the description of the experience. I used to frequently “wake up” at night, as a teenager mostly, (long before I ever did any drugs, hallucinagenic or otherwise) to find my “self” hovering above my sleeping body, seeing myself from somewhere near the ceiling. It is an unnerving experience (and it’s true; you don’t look anything like you think you do in the mirror or in photos, seeing yourself in 3D, as others do, is freaky:eek: Many, many people who’ve experienced NDEs describe this, if they happen to look back/down at their bodies, as well as a feeling of detachment from their bodies, emotional, I mean. One woman who was hit by a car reported being more distressed over the state of the new dress she was wearing at the time than her severely injured body) The shock usually woke me up and I felt my “self” rush back into my body as this occurred. And the state of percieving the universe/world very differently, as this sort of massive, intricate organism, of which you are but a cell or even less, or, dare I say it, a thought inside some incomprehensible mind…exactly. Your perception of reality is altered radically. (and that tends to linger in those with this experience. Most say they no longer fear death and are more tolerant and peaceful overall and others around them often confirm changes in their attitudes and behaviors. The same effect WAS recently documented among those having experienced an hallucinagenic trip, btw) I’ve done a great deal of reading on the subject of NDEs, and also read the theories of the debunkers (those who probably won’t believe it even when they “wake up dead” as my Granny used to say and still aware and out of their own bodies…they’ll likely spend a good part of eternity wih their hands over their ears and their eyes closed chanting, “it’s just an hallucination!” :D) I AM a cynic by nature, and don’t believe everything I read (or hear or see, ftm), but imo there is ample evidence of this phenomenon to take it seriously AS an actual non-physical/spiritual event. Yes, certain drugs can induce such states. As can the naturally produced stress/pain hormones our bodies produce. As can oxygen deprivation to a dying brain. As can stimulation of certain parts of the brain. But hell, ejaculation can be induced with an electrode up the ass…does that mean sex and orgasm and the ejaculation that usually accompanies that are bunk? Yes, many such accounts can be explained away by such physical factors, but not all by far. And when we have cases, as we do, in which the “survivor” has reported things which were impossible for them to know in any physical manner, it is just bad science to dismiss the facts because they don’t fit the “truth” as we know it. Raymond Moody was a trailblazer in the field and documented many such cases, including ones in which people accurately reported conversations going on in other parts of the hospital, well out of even super-normal hearing, as they lay “dead” and things they could not have seen physically or otherwise known of. (in one case, the survivor reported floating up out of his body, observing the hospital staff attempting to revive him, and seeing, while hovering on the ceiling, a brightly colored sticker affixed to the hood of a light fixture in the room. It was necessary to get a ladder to inspect the fixture in question later, but when they did, his report was confirmed.) Many who consider themselves rational and scientific poo-poo such things out of hand as “WOOOO-WOOOOO”:rolleyes: But science encompases everything which exists, and should not limit itself to preconcieved notions. (the notion here being that all is matter and flows from the physical and there is nothing but, period…there is no mind, only brain. Everything is biochemical, even the love we feel for those most dear to us. Everything is essentially meaningless and turns to shit, basically :dubious:) On one level, I agree…as a biochemist friend of mine likes to say, it’s all biomass. Yes, it is, on one level. And even that is beautiful. But I happen to think there are levels beyond that which are only called “supernatural” because we don’t yet understand them. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/138 "2009-02-13T22:49:36Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Nobody’s asking him for evidence that he had an NDE - we all believe that. We’re asking for any reason _at all_ to believe that it wasn’t just some wild mental experience, like unto a dream. After all, we know dreams happen. Souls…not so much. > > So far, we’ve had the ‘it’s really trippy’ argument, the \*_‘humans and furbys must have souls because they act different than rocks’_ argument, and now he’s giving us the argumentum ad populi argument (also known as the ‘stars are really tiny things floating only a little ways above the earth, because lots of people thought that was true once and this is a democracy dammit’ argument). All of these are, of course, garbage arguments, when faced with \*the real fact that we know people have dreams, and that \*_he woke up and claimed to have something that looks like a dream, quacks like a dream, and has webbed feet like a dream._ > \*\*\*Really, it doesn’t matter much if he thinks that he has some kind of _nonsensical soul_, > > besides that it paints a target on his forehead for organizations that might want a tithe of his money. (Assuming he isn’t already snared in such an organization, that is.) It also wouldn’t matter if he thought the smurfs were real, that gravity is the work of invisible goblins holding things down, or that there was no such place as australia and that all references to it were a grand conspiracy of misinformation. > > \*But for those of us interested in the _truth_, \*\*\*_we require more than a trippy dream, or billions of people repeating the guesses of bronze-age tribes, before we decide to accept a belief. We want evidence._ > > \*\*\*\*\*And regarding souls, the evidence is uniformly that your brain is your mind, and when the grey matter spatters, the game is over. > > And happy V-Day to you, too. _My response. Just follow the bouncing asteriks._ \*I beg to differ, sir. I have never said humans and furbys have souls because they don’t act like rocks. I said that humans are different than rocks which are inanimate (not endowed with life or spirit). Humans are endowed with animation (life and spirit). If you don’t like the word “spirit” feel free to throw it out. What you’re left with is “life” which I’m sure we all can agree on. \*\*Au contraire. I said I had a NDE which was unlike anything I had ever had. It’s you who keeps insisting it was just a dream. \*\*\*That’s not very objective or rational for a skeptic who prides himself on rational and objective thought. \*\*\*\* And I require more than one set of facts about biochemical animation (possessing or characterized by life) as the totality of a human. Your facts prove one thing and one thing only: lifeas we know it, has to have certain bioelectrical procesess going on in order to remain in that state of animation. It does not prove or disprove anything beyond that. You are saying, because of this, therefore that. This, being quantified bioelectrical tests that pertain to a state of animation necessary to possesses the attribute of existence. That, being: because the state of physical animation ceases at death, therefore, there is no metaphysical aspect of existence. you’re saying the lack of evidence is evidence of absence. I’m saying absence of proof is not necessarily proof of absence. \*\*\*\*\*"The game’ being physical animation. That we know for sure. Beyond that, the only thing we know for sure is that we know nothing for sure, unless you’re God. Oops, wait a minute, there is no God. You’ve proven that to your satisfaction. Strike that. [http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble\_with\_atheism.php](http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble_with_atheism.php) **Uncle Albet says, hi, happy v-day!** Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive for truth, beauty, and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated. The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that is there. 5 ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/139 "2009-02-13T22:57:57Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > You said you are not claiming that you know how everything works and they you say I had a dream at best. In order to say I had a “dream at best” is claiming to know how that whole process works in toto with the information you have available to you. You only know the biochemical aspects on this side of the stick which may or may not be all of the facts. > > Right now I need two things from you: > > 1. prove to me that once the biochemical process shuts down there is nothing more. > > 2. Do you think that you are 100% right with your perception and billions of other that don’t have your perception are wrong? I need two things from you: 1. Prove that your biochemical process was shut down. A corpse’s biochemical process isn’t shut down. You still have biochemistry if a heart stops. 2. Give me a cite that shows billions of people share this same belief in NDEs. My opinion is not unique. Here are some links that agree and disagree with me. [http://johnhawks.net:84/node/188](http://johnhawks.net:84/node/188) [http://news.softpedia.com/news/Near-Death-Experiences-Explained-22390.shtml](http://news.softpedia.com/news/Near-Death-Experiences-Explained-22390.shtml) Now, I’ll admit, my heart never stopped, but my comatose experiences were a lot like an NDE. All of it could be explained. I truly believe if the word “afterlife” was never invented, NO ONE would claim to have a NDE. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/140 "2009-02-13T23:05:46Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > I’ve done a great deal of reading on the subject of NDEs, and also read the theories of the debunkers (those who probably won’t believe it even when they “wake up dead” as my Granny used to say and still aware and out of their own bodies…they’ll likely spend a good part of eternity wih their hands over their ears and their eyes closed chanting, “it’s just an hallucination!” :D) Garbage. The debunkers aren’t in denial of reality; there’s no evidence for them to deny. > [@InterestedObserver](#): > > II AM a cynic by nature, and don’t believe everything I read (or hear or see, ftm), but imo there is ample evidence of this phenomenon to take it seriously AS an actual non-physical/spiritual event. Again, nonsense. Baseless assertions by people who were in a state where brain malfunctions can be expected do not qualify as “ample evidence”. And if you buy this garbage, you are most certainly not “a cynic by nature”. > [@InterestedObserver](#): > > Yes, many such accounts can be explained away by such physical factors, but not all by far. Really. And why has this not been publicized ? Oh, let me guess; it’s because of some conspiracy of the scientists to suppress the Truth. Not because those unexplainable accounts don’t actually exist. > [@InterestedObserver](#): > > And when we have cases, as we do, in which the “survivor” has reported things which were impossible for them to know in any physical manner, it is just bad science to dismiss the facts because they don’t fit the “truth” as we know it. And if that ever happened, you’d have a point. But it doesn’t. > [@InterestedObserver](#): > > Many who consider themselves rational and scientific poo-poo such things out of hand as “WOOOO-WOOOOO”:rolleyes: But science encompases everything which exists, and should not limit itself to preconcieved notions. (the notion here being that all is matter and flows from the physical and there is nothing but, period…there is no mind, only brain. Everything is biochemical, even the love we feel for those most dear to us. Everything is essentially meaningless and turns to shit, basically :dubious:) And since when has that been a scientific position ? You are engaging in the standard emotional appeal of the believer; claiming that without your pet fantasy everything is meaningless. > [@InterestedObserver](#): > > But I happen to think there are levels beyond that which are only called “supernatural” because we don’t yet understand them. They are called “supernatural” because they don’t exist. They are superstitions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411.md?page=8)