# NDE, I had one, has anyone else? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411 "2009-02-11T19:15:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/141 "2009-02-13T23:18:17Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > It is ridiculous nonsense to assert that atheists “make as much noise” as theists. Absolutely, totally, ridiculous. Check it out. [http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble\_with\_atheism.php](http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble_with_atheism.php) Big Al E. Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive for truth, beauty, and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated. The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that is there. 5 ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/142 "2009-02-13T23:26:58Z")
> [@Lanzy](#): > > No, I do not remember it, I was out cold, literally. My wife was present and relayed all of it to me. Could she have gotten something wrong, sure its possible. > > What I remember; Knowing my van was hit in the rear and the van going out of control, feeling intense pain and telling myself to go limp, then nothing until I woke up in the ambulance, to a screaming crying wife. A policeman visited me in the hospital the next day and told me he measured my body as 137 feet from the wrecked van on the pavement, checked my pulse, and went to see if there was anyone he could help. My wife was still in the van, and he helped her get out whereapon she went to me and began cpr. When the EMTs showed up they continued the CPR and applied the paddles to me after cutting my clothes off. After some time passed they covered me up and eventually loaded me in the ambulance with my wife and daughter that were in the van also. Daughter suffered no injuries at all. My son was also thrown from the van and was knocked out but no permanent injuries, > > I had two broken knees, one broken ankle, cracked shoulder, dislocated arm, and muscles tore from my scapula and approx 80% bruising including a concusion from hitting the windsheild and the pavement. I don’t know how long I was dead or even if I was really dead, but the EMTs thought so. > > The policeman let me know he had been chasing a GTO going about 110mph when the car struck me in the left rear while I was doing 50 mph. From the perspective of an EMT, let me tell you just how lucky you were (although I’m sure you’ve probably heard most of it before). Being ejected from a vehicle in a high speed accident means certain death. Even EMTs that work in an ambulance for 40 years can’t say they’ve seen someone survive vehicle ejection, with almost zero exceptions. I’ve never met one who claimed to see someone survive this (although admittedly I’ve been an EMT for less than year). I have never met an EMT who even claimed to KNOW SOMEONE ELSE who witnessed someone survive vehicle ejection. For both you and your son to survive that accident after being ejected from the vehicle was the rarest of the rare, once-in-a-million-lifetimes occurrence. I have actually HEARD of this happening in reports though, so statistically I guess it is a greater than zero chance. The real head scratcher for me is that you were shocked at least twice, with no results, had no pulse or electrical activity in your heart at all (which is the only way the EMTs would have considered discontinuing CPR, assuming they connected and read the heart monitor correctly), and spontaneously regained a normal rhythm without CPR or any other intervention. That’s seriously something worth writing a book about, and I can understand how it could make someone religious. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/143 "2009-02-13T23:31:01Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > Check it out. > [http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble\_with\_atheism.php](http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble_with_atheism.php) I’m not going to watch your video. It’s much too long. Feel free to summarize it, specifically where it proves your claim. But until atheists have ten channels on cable TV, a church on every street corner, constant praise from sports figures, politicians, celebrities, and journalists, a place in the national anthem of the U.S., paid days off for their holidays, etc. etc. etc., it is ridiculous to state that their voices are as loud as those of the religious. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/144 "2009-02-13T23:39:09Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > \*I beg to differ, sir. I have never said humans and furbys have souls because they don’t act like rocks. I said that humans are different than rocks which are inanimate (not endowed with life or spirit). Humans are endowed with animation (life and spirit). If you don’t like the word “spirit” feel free to throw it out. What you’re left with is “life” which I’m sure we all can agree on. Yes, let’s throw out the word spirit. As for life, that’s actually not as clearly defined as you might think. Is a virus alive? How about that Furby? How about in six hundred years, when the Furbys finally earn their voting rights? > [@jakesteele](#): > > \*\*Au contraire. I said I had a NDE which was unlike anything I had ever had. It’s you who keeps insisting it was just a dream. A dream is any experience which seems like a real experience to the person (or Furby) experiencing it, which is in fact entirely contained in their heads and a product of their own brain. Depending on circumstance or type, they can be called daydreams or nightmares; they can have any of an entire range of realisms, to totally dreamlike and unreal, to completely lucid and realistic. Sometimes elements of dreams are in the conscious control of the dreamer; sometimes not. The definition of “dream” is wide; necessarily, if your experience was entirely in your head, it fits the definition. And yes, I know you keep insisting it wasn’t just a dream, that you actually left your body and brain and tiptoed through the tulips or whatever. You can also, if you like, insist that you are the king of America. Neither insistence effects the actual reality of the situation, and neither insistence alone is even slightly compelling towards encouraging belief in it. I don’t suppose your ‘NDE’ happened to mention tomorrow’s lotto numbers, or anything else verifiable, did it? > [@jakesteele](#): > > \*\*\*That’s not very objective or rational for a skeptic who prides himself on rational and objective thought. What isn’t? It’s entirely rational and objective of me not to care what silly things you may believe. And it’s _entirely_ rational and objective to only care about what _actually_ happened. > [@jakesteele](#): > > \*\*\*\* And I require more than one set of facts about biochemical animation (possessing or characterized by life) as the totality of a human. Your facts prove one thing and one thing only: lifeas we know it, has to have certain bioelectrical procesess going on in order to remain in that state of animation. It does not prove or disprove anything beyond that. It’s also a fact that if your mind wasn’t a product of your brain, then we couldn’t shut off your mind by doing things to your head. Do you disbelieve that when people are clocked on the head, sometimes they lose not only the connection to their senses, but also their sense of time passing? If you were actually a soul merely _listening_ to your brain, you might be blinded by the loss of connection to your senses, but nothing could stop you from noticing each moment of senselessness passing. That proves you are not a soul living in your body. > [@jakesteele](#): > > you’re saying the lack of evidence is evidence of absence. I’m saying absence of proof is not necessarily proof of absence. No, I’m saying that there is not an absence of proof. There _is_ proof of absence. > [@jakesteele](#): > > \*\*\*\*\*"The game’ being physical animation. That we know for sure. Beyond that, the only thing we know for sure is that we know nothing for sure, unless you’re God. Oops, wait a minute, there is no God. You’ve proven that to your satisfaction. Strike that. As noted above, we know more than that. Those of us not dedicated to ignoring facts in favor of perpetuating ancient beliefs, that is. (And I can prove there’s no _christian_ god, if you like. Assuming that you assume that God is both omnipotent and perfectly honest. Or that it’s both omnipotent and omnitient and benevolent. Or that it’s omnitient and granted us libertarian free will…) And I’m not in a position to watch some movie - if you have some point to make by linking it, summarize it and present it. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/145 "2009-02-13T23:45:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Garbage. The debunkers aren’t in denial of reality; there’s no evidence for them to deny. > > Again, nonsense. Baseless assertions by people who were in a state where brain malfunctions can be expected do not qualify as “ample evidence”. > > And if you buy this garbage, you are most certainly not “a cynic by nature”. > > Really. And why has this not been publicized ? Oh, let me guess; it’s because of some conspiracy of the scientists to suppress the Truth. Not because those unexplainable accounts don’t actually exist. > > And if that ever happened, you’d have a point. But it doesn’t. > > And since when has that been a scientific position ? You are engaging in the standard emotional appeal of the believer; claiming that without your pet fantasy everything is meaningless. > > They are called “supernatural” because they don’t exist. They are superstitions. What do you mean by “publicized”? These reports have been published as peer reviewed studies and included in books sold to the mass market. Just because you missed them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. You dismiss everything I said out of hand, offering no evidence or rationale for doing so other than your deeply ingrained belief that it’s all “superstitions”. ( and you talk about “believers”) Sorry to step on YOUR “pet fantasy” by demanding a bit more in the way of intelligent debate before taking you seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/146 "2009-02-14T04:18:58Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > What do you mean by “publicized”? These reports have been published as peer reviewed studies and included in books sold to the mass market. Just because you missed them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Yeah, suuure. And of course actual scientists are ignoring these supposed studies because . . . why ? The Illuminati doesn’t want the Truth published ? And you can get ANY sort of nonsense published in the mass market. That’s hardly evidence of truthfulness. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/147 "2009-02-14T05:37:23Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > What do you mean by “publicized”? These reports have been published as peer reviewed studies and included in books sold to the mass market. Which peer reviewed studies are you referring to? The mass market books don’t matter-how many times have the _Garfield_ books hit the bestseller lists? ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/148 "2009-02-14T08:54:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yeah, suuure. And of course actual scientists are ignoring these supposed studies because . . . why ? The Illuminati doesn’t want the Truth published ? > > And you can get ANY sort of nonsense published in the mass market. That’s hardly evidence of truthfulness. Tell you what, you and Czarcasm, feel free to cite studies proving those I mentioned wrong, huh? It’s obvious that you are ignorant of them (yes, they DO exist) . Easy enough to cry BS and sit on your ass and offer nothing to support your pov other than “it’s science as we know it to date, therefore I am right!” :dubious: Catch up already. Science as we know it is changing constantly. A few cites just for fun/to temp you into doing a bit of research: [http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/neardeth.htm](http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/neardeth.htm) Study into near-death experiences supports theory of a ‘sixth sense’ Thu 11 Sep 2003 RICHARD SADLER BRITISH scientists say there is convincing evidence that a significant proportion of the population possess psychic powers. The British Association for the Advancement of Science was told an increasing number of experiments support the theory of a human “sixth sense” - an ability which may have its roots in our past, when the ability to sense the presence of a predator was a matter of life or death. The view that people are capable of paranormal feats, such as premonitions, telepathy, and out-of-body experiences, is supported by new research by the Institute of Psychiatry, which suggests the human mind may exist outside the body like an invisible magnetic field. The research is being led by Dr Peter Fenwick, a neuro-psychiatrist at London University, who has just completed a survey of heart patients claiming to have had “near-death experiences” after their hearts had stopped beating. “There is now convincing evidence to challenge the current theory that consciousness can only exist inside the brain - and if you can have consciousness without associated brain function, that is enormously important for our understanding of the mind,” he said. For his latest research, 60 patients at Southampton General Hospital’s coronary care unit were interviewed after heart attacks had left them temporarily brain-dead. Seven reported near-death experiences - defined by characteristic features such as a feeling of leaving your body, going through a tunnel and entering an area of “love, bliss and consciousness”. “The significance of this is that after a cardiac arrest you lose consciousness within eight seconds; within 11 seconds the brain’s rhythms become flat, and within 18 seconds there is no possibility of the brain creating a model of the world - so the brain is down,” said Dr Fenwick. “Yet whenever we asked people when their near-death experiences occurred, they said it was during unconsciousness. If that’s true, their experience was occurring when there was no blood flowing through the brain - and consciousness would appear to exist outside the brain.” It could be argued that their experiences occurred in the few seconds between brain functions being restored and the return of consciousness. But recent research on a patient in the United States, where traces of electrical activity in the brain were closely monitored, suggested this was not the case. “That study and other evidence points to the mind and brain not being identical, and it seems that the mind may operate in part outside the brain as a sort of field which works in the same way as a TV receiver receives programmes through the airwaves,” said Dr Fenwick. “The main question we are trying to answer is does the brain-identity theory really hold - and the next step is to find more people who experience leaving their bodies and put symbols on the ceiling or walls of the ward to see if they are able to detect them.” Dr Fenwick said the idea of the mind existing outside the body helped to explain the growing weight of scientific evidence pointing to genuine psychic powers. For example, US trials showed women trying to become pregnant by in-vitro fertilisation were twice as likely to conceive if they were “prayed for” by a group of people hundreds of miles away who had never met them. Wednesday, 1st October 2003 ©2003 [Scotsman.com](http://Scotsman.com) > **[World's Largest-ever Study Of Near-Death Experiences](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080910090829.htm)** > > The University of Southampton is launching the world's largest-ever study of near-death experiences this week. The University of Southampton is launching the world's largest-ever study of near-death experiences this week. The AWARE (AWAreness during... World’s Largest-ever Study Of Near-Death Experiences ScienceDaily (Sep. 10, 2008) — The University of Southampton is launching the world’s largest-ever study of near-death experiences this week. (gee, guess it’s still a going concern, not “doa” as some assert :rolleyes:) As for claiming “well, that just never happened” when confronted with documented cases (re Raymond Moody MD, buy the book, it’s in there), you are essentially accusing everyone involved, the Drs, the nurses, the survivor, the family, of being big fat liars. Where is your evidence in support of this slanderous allegation? If I had any indication you (either of you) had ever read anything related to NDEs (studies, books, anything other than pop culture reports…ever even HEARD of Moody or Kubler-Ross? I thought not.) I might be able to take your comments seriously. As yet, I’ve nothing to go on but knee-jerk debunking. Hardly worth my time. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/149 "2009-02-14T16:05:00Z")
**InterestedObserver** , your first link is to a highly biased article about non-named studies and a bunch of anonymous anecdotes, and your second link is to a _proposed_ study-fail on both counts. Can you provide us links to peer-reviewed studies that support your position? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/150 "2009-02-14T16:07:24Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > Tell you what, you and Czarcasm, feel free to cite studies proving those I mentioned wrong, huh? It’s obvious that you are ignorant of them (yes, they DO exist) . Easy enough to cry BS and sit on your ass and offer nothing to support your pov other than “it’s science as we know it to date, therefore I am right!” :dubious: Catch up already. Science as we know it is changing constantly. > > A few cites just for fun/to temp you into doing a bit of research: > > [http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/neardeth.htm](http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/neardeth.htm) > Study into near-death experiences supports theory of a ‘sixth sense’ Thu 11 Sep 2003 > RICHARD SADLER > BRITISH scientists say there is convincing evidence that a significant proportion of the population possess psychic powers. The British Association for the Advancement of Science was told an increasing number of experiments support the theory of a human “sixth sense” - an ability which may have its roots in our past, when the ability to sense the presence of a predator was a matter of life or death. > The view that people are capable of paranormal feats, such as premonitions, telepathy, and out-of-body experiences, is supported by new research by the Institute of Psychiatry, which suggests the human mind may exist outside the body like an invisible magnetic field. The research is being led by Dr Peter Fenwick, a neuro-psychiatrist at London University, who has just completed a survey of heart patients claiming to have had “near-death experiences” after their hearts had stopped beating. > “There is now convincing evidence to challenge the current theory that consciousness can only exist inside the brain - and if you can have consciousness without associated brain function, that is enormously important for our understanding of the mind,” he said. > For his latest research, 60 patients at Southampton General Hospital’s coronary care unit were interviewed after heart attacks had left them temporarily brain-dead. Seven reported near-death experiences - defined by characteristic features such as a feeling of leaving your body, going through a tunnel and entering an area of “love, bliss and consciousness”. > “The significance of this is that after a cardiac arrest you lose consciousness within eight seconds; within 11 seconds the brain’s rhythms become flat, and within 18 seconds there is no possibility of the brain creating a model of the world - so the brain is down,” said Dr Fenwick. > “Yet whenever we asked people when their near-death experiences occurred, they said it was during unconsciousness. If that’s true, their experience was occurring when there was no blood flowing through the brain - and consciousness would appear to exist outside the brain.” > It could be argued that their experiences occurred in the few seconds between brain functions being restored and the return of consciousness. But recent research on a patient in the United States, where traces of electrical activity in the brain were closely monitored, suggested this was not the case. > “That study and other evidence points to the mind and brain not being identical, and it seems that the mind may operate in part outside the brain as a sort of field which works in the same way as a TV receiver receives programmes through the airwaves,” said Dr Fenwick. > “The main question we are trying to answer is does the brain-identity theory really hold - and the next step is to find more people who experience leaving their bodies and put symbols on the ceiling or walls of the ward to see if they are able to detect them.” > Dr Fenwick said the idea of the mind existing outside the body helped to explain the growing weight of scientific evidence pointing to genuine psychic powers. > For example, US trials showed women trying to become pregnant by in-vitro fertilisation were twice as likely to conceive if they were “prayed for” by a group of people hundreds of miles away who had never met them. > > Wednesday, 1st October 2003 > ©2003 [Scotsman.com](http://Scotsman.com) > > [World's Largest-ever Study Of Near-Death Experiences | ScienceDaily](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080910090829.htm) > > World’s Largest-ever Study Of Near-Death Experiences > ScienceDaily (Sep. 10, 2008) — The University of Southampton is launching the world’s largest-ever study of near-death experiences this week. > > (gee, guess it’s still a going concern, not “doa” as some assert :rolleyes:) > > As for claiming “well, that just never happened” when confronted with documented cases (re Raymond Moody MD, buy the book, it’s in there), you are essentially accusing everyone involved, the Drs, the nurses, the survivor, the family, of being big fat liars. Where is your evidence in support of this slanderous allegation? > > If I had any indication you (either of you) had ever read anything related to NDEs (studies, books, anything other than pop culture reports…ever even HEARD of Moody or Kubler-Ross? I thought not.) I might be able to take your comments seriously. As yet, I’ve nothing to go on but knee-jerk debunking. > > Hardly worth my time. Excellent post, nice to see some truth coming into this board. Really good work. Nice to see experiencers on the offense. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/151 "2009-02-14T16:09:17Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > Hardly worth my time. Finally, something we can agree on. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/152 "2009-02-14T22:17:30Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > I need two things from you: > > 1. Prove that your biochemical process was shut down. A corpse’s biochemical > process isn’t shut down. You still have biochemistry if a heart stops. > > 2. Give me a cite that shows billions of people share this same belief in NDEs. > My opinion is not unique. Here are some links that agree and disagree with me. > > [http://johnhawks.net:84/node/188](http://johnhawks.net:84/node/188) > [http://news.softpedia.com/news/Near-Death-Experiences-Explained-22390.shtml](http://news.softpedia.com/news/Near-Death-Experiences-Explained-22390.shtml) > > Now, I’ll admit, my heart never stopped, but my comatose experiences were a lot like an NDE. All of it could be explained. I truly believe if the word “afterlife” was never invented, NO ONE would claim to have a NDE. > like an NDE. All of it could be explained. I truly _believe_ if the word “afterlife” was never invented, NO ONE would claim to have a NDE. 1. I forgot to have the doctor bring in neurological experts and have a boichemical/brain wave mapping device attached to me. You are making assumptions about my situation to fit your already preconceived notions. 2. Who said there were billions who believe in NDE. There are billions who believe that life, the universe and everything has a metaphysical component to it. More to the point, most religious, spiritual, metaphysical, etc. cosmological viewpoints think that our existence is but a part of that. First off, it’s not the word “afterlife” that was invented, it is the concept of afterlife, regardless of whatever word is used to describe that concept by any particular group, that was percieved/concieved of. And I truly _believe_ that there are more things in life, the universe than ever dreamt of in your pseudo skeptic’s philosophy. [http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble\_with\_atheism.php](http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trouble_with_atheism.php) This guy believes that there are more things in life, the universe and everything than you pseudo skeptic’s philosophy can conceive of. ALBERT EINSTEIN: Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive for truth, beauty, and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated. The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that is there. 5 AS DOES THIS GUY: (any true skeptic worth his salt would know this guy) Marcello Truzzi - founding co-chairman of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP), a founder of the Society for Scientific Exploration, and director for the Center for Scientific Anomalies Research. “There are some members of the skeptics’ groups who clearly believe they know the right answer prior to inquiry. They appear not to be interested in weighing alternatives, investigating strange claims, or trying out psychic experiences or altered states for themselves (heaven forbid!), but only in promoting their own particular belief structure and cohesion . . . I have to say it—most of these people are men. Indeed, I have not met a single woman of this type.”[10] ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/153 "2009-02-14T22:22:50Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > There are billions who believe that life, the universe and everything has a metaphysical component to it. More to the point, most religious, spiritual, metaphysical, etc. cosmological viewpoints think that our existence is but a part of that. And none of them have any evidence. And they wildly contradict each other. They have no clue what they are babbling about. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/154 "2009-02-14T22:35:41Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Yes, let’s throw out the word spirit. As for life, that’s actually not as clearly defined as you might think. Is a virus alive? How about that Furby? How about in six hundred years, when the Furbys finally earn their voting rights? > A dream is any experience which seems like a real experience to the person (or Furby) experiencing it, which is in fact entirely contained in their heads and a product of their own brain. Depending on circumstance or type, they can be called daydreams or nightmares; they can have any of an entire range of realisms, to totally dreamlike and unreal, to completely lucid and realistic. Sometimes elements of dreams are in the conscious control of the dreamer; sometimes not. > > The definition of “dream” is wide; necessarily, if your experience was entirely in your head, it fits the definition. > > And yes, I know you keep insisting it wasn’t just a dream, that you actually left your body and brain and tiptoed through the tulips or whatever. You can also, if you like, insist that you are the king of America. Neither insistence effects the actual reality of the situation, and neither insistence alone is even slightly compelling towards encouraging belief in it. > > I don’t suppose your ‘NDE’ happened to mention tomorrow’s lotto numbers, or anything else verifiable, did it? > What isn’t? It’s entirely rational and objective of me not to care what silly things you may believe. And it’s _entirely_ rational and objective to only care about what _actually_ happened. > It’s also a fact that if your mind wasn’t a product of your brain, then we couldn’t shut off your mind by doing things to your head. Do you disbelieve that when people are clocked on the head, sometimes they lose not only the connection to their senses, but also their sense of time passing? If you were actually a soul merely _listening_ to your brain, you might be blinded by the loss of connection to your senses, but nothing could stop you from noticing each moment of senselessness passing. > > That proves you are not a soul living in your body. > > No, I’m saying that there is not an absence of proof. There _is_ proof of absence. > As noted above, we know more than that. Those of us not dedicated to ignoring facts in favor of perpetuating ancient beliefs, that is. > > (And I can prove there’s no _christian_ god, if you like. Assuming that you assume that God is both omnipotent and perfectly honest. Or that it’s both omnipotent and omnitient and benevolent. Or that it’s omnitient and granted us libertarian free will…) > > * * * > > And I’m not in a position to watch some movie - if you have some point to make by linking it, summarize it and present it. THE TROUBLE WITH ATHEISM: The documentary focuses on atheism, and science in general, for its perceived similarities to religion, as well as arrogance and intolerance. The programme includes interviews with a number of prominent scientists, including atheists Richard Dawkins and Peter Atkins and Anglican priest John Polkinghorne. It also includes an interview with Ellen Johnson, the president of American Atheists. ALBERT EINSTEIN: Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive for truth, beauty, and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated. The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that is there. 5 Marcello Truzzi (September 6, 1935 — February 2, 2003) was a professor of sociology at New College of Florida and later at Eastern Michigan University, founding co-chairman of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP), a founder of the Society for Scientific Exploration, and director for the Center for Scientific Anomalies Research.[1] Marcello Truzzi (September 6, 1935 — February 2, 2003) was a professor of sociology at New College of Florida and later at Eastern Michigan University, founding co-chairman of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP), a founder of the Society for Scientific Exploration, and director for the Center for Scientific Anomalies Research.[1] Truzzi was an investigator of various protosciences and pseudosciences and, as fellow CSICOP cofounder Paul Kurtz dubbed him, “the skeptic’s skeptic.” he coined the term pseudoskepticism. Truzzi stated, ``` "They tend to block honest inquiry, in my opinion. Most of them are not agnostic toward claims of the paranormal; they are out to knock them. [...] When an experiment of the paranormal meets their requirements, then they move the goal posts. Then, if the experiment is reputable, they say it's a mere anomaly." In science, the burden of proof falls upon the claimant; and the more extraordinary a claim, the heavier is the burden of proof demanded. The true skeptic takes an agnostic position, one that says the claim is not proved rather than disproved. He asserts that the claimant has not borne the burden of proof and that science must continue to build its cognitive map of reality without incorporating the extraordinary claim as a new "fact." Since the true skeptic does not assert a claim, he has no burden to prove anything. He just goes on using the established theories of "conventional science" as usual. But if a critic asserts that there is evidence for disproof, that he has a negative hypothesis --saying, for instance, that a seeming psi result was actually due to an artifact--he is making a claim and therefore also has to bear a burden of proof. – Marcello Truzzi, On Pseudo-Skepticism, Zetetic Scholar, 12/13, pp3-4, 1987 ``` ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/155 "2009-02-14T22:40:14Z")
It would be interesting to know if there was any difference in the psychiatric make up of the differing camps of NDE experiencers. I wonder if it could be proved that those with a more negative outlook on life tended to have the ‘dark’, frightening trips to the other side? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/156 "2009-02-14T22:52:18Z")
p.s. Excuse the extra “experiencers”. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/157 "2009-02-14T23:57:03Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > But I happen to think there are levels beyond that which are only called “supernatural” because we don’t yet understand them. There is no such thing as the “supernatural”. There ARE things that we don’t yet understand (and some things that we will never understand) but these things are still natural. They do \*not \*exist outside of nature simply because we don’t understand them. There is nothing “outside” of nature. That which exists is part of nature. ---
**Author:** ![Meteorshower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Meteorshower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meteorshower)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/158 "2009-02-15T00:04:49Z")
Wow, my last post was FIVE years ago. That’s because I’m usually happy with just lurking around. Eventually, _someone_ says exactly what I would have said had I posted. But it hasn’t happened yet in this thread, so… I had something very similar to a NDE while playing a “hold your breath” contest in a pool with some friends. I won. :dubious: I also got to stop existing for a while, became one with the universe, saw a pinprick of light and felt very peaceful. Despite this experience, I _don’t_ believe in life after death. That being said, I have some comments on things other posters have said in this thread! [QUOTE=begbert] A dream is any experience which seems like a real experience to the person (or Furby) experiencing it, which is in fact entirely contained in their heads and a product of their own brain. Depending on circumstance or type, they can be called daydreams or nightmares; they can have any of an entire range of realisms, to totally dreamlike and unreal, to completely lucid and realistic. Sometimes elements of dreams are in the conscious control of the dreamer; sometimes not. [/QUOTE] I agree that a NDE seems to fit the definition of a dream. I guess you’ll just have to believe me when I say that in my case, it felt very different from a dream. I think, when you’re having a NDE, your brain sort of blasts you with the feeling that your experiencing something extremely meaningful which is why so many people that have had a NDE think that it HAS to mean something more. (Remember, I don’t!) The best analogy I can come up with would be explaining the difference between a drawing of a cube and a magic eye picture that makes a cube once you cross your eyes properly. It’s really hard explaining the difference to someone that has never been able to see a magic eye picture. Yes, they’re both 3D and they’re both cubes, but the magic eye picture is _different_! It has something extra, it has depth! When you’ve seen examples of both, you don’t have any trouble differencing one from the other. To me and I suspect to others, a NDE isn’t a dream, it’s something very different. That being said, just because a NDE feels meaningful and happens when you’re near death, it doesn’t mean you have any special insights on death. You just can’t use a NDE as an argument that there’s life after death because, as others have pointed out, you haven’t actually died! Let’s try another analogy : water near the freezing point. You put your hands in almost frozen water and it’s really cold. You could feel tempted to tell people, “look, when water freezes, you can put you hand in it and it feels really cold! I know because I’ve done it!” But you’d be wrong to say that as when water actually freezes, it becomes solid. For those of you that say “we’re just a biochemical process.” Well, sure. But other posters in this thread have experienced that particular biochemical process as something that has a special meaning for them. I feel that just dismissing it like that, even if it’s true, sort of comes across like saying “well, you’re not really in love, it’s just a biochemical process” to someone that falls in love. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > It would be interesting to know if there was any difference in the psychiatric make up of the differing camps of NDE experiencers. I wonder if it could be proved that those with a more negative outlook on life tended to have the ‘dark’, frightening trips to the other side? That would be really interesting. It’s kind of hard to find actual scientific studies on NDE. Personally, I’ve always wondered why the brain bothers sending you on a nice peaceful NDE at all? Shouldn’t it be doing everything it can to make sure you survive, rather than just letting you feel all peaceful? I find it weird that everyone doesn’t get the ‘dark’ trips as a sort of last ditch attempt by the brain to make your body react in any possible way that might help you survive. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/159 "2009-02-15T00:35:52Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Nice to see experiencers on the offense. A pity that there never are any, just people expecting us to swallow their bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/160 "2009-02-15T02:32:54Z")
> [@Meteorshower](#): > > For those of you that say “we’re just a biochemical process.” Well, sure. But other posters in this thread have experienced that particular biochemical process as something that has a special meaning for them. I feel that just dismissing it like that, even if it’s true, sort of comes across like saying “well, you’re not really in love, it’s just a biochemical process” to someone that falls in love. Not really. It’s more like telling someone who claims to have a psychic connection to someone because they are in love that love is just an emotion. > [@jakesteele](#): > > THE TROUBLE WITH ATHEISM: > The documentary focuses on atheism, and science in general, for its perceived similarities to religion, as well as arrogance and intolerance. In other words, garbage. It’s “perceived similarities” are just attempts to drag it down to the level of religion by believers, so they can pretend that their foolishness is the equal of science. Science and religion are pretty much pure opposites, not similar. And the “arrogance” of atheism is what any unbeliever who fails to suck up enough gets accused of, and the “intolerance” of atheism is what atheists get accused of when they ask for actual evidence. And would you stop with the Einstein and Truzzi quotes ? We’ve seen them a dozen times. You are also misrepresenting Einstein - a common tactic of believers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411.md?page=9)