# Neandertal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 12, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neandertal/154642 "2003-02-12T20:23:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neandertal/154642/1 "2003-02-12T20:23:46Z")
I just did a quick search and I couldn’t find the answer to this: When did Neandert **h** al become Neandertal? ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neandertal/154642/2 "2003-02-12T20:26:58Z")
I am not sure it is spelt that way (without the **h** ), but it is (and to the best of my knowledge always been), promounced that way ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neandertal/154642/3 "2003-02-12T20:34:28Z")
It never did. It is spelled with an h because Neanderthal is the name of the valley in Germany and where the fossils were found. The “th” sound in German is pronounced like “t”. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neandertal/154642/4 "2003-02-12T20:39:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UnwrittenNocturne \* > \*\*I am not sure it is spelt that way (without the **h** ), but it is (and to the best of my knowledge always been), promounced that way \*\* That’s interesting…Maybe I’ve just been hearing it pronounced differentally all these years-which is entirely possible. So have I just been hearing it from ignorant sources, or _was_ it ever pronounced that way (by scientists), and why the changed? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neandertal/154642/5 "2003-02-12T20:52:39Z")
[Neanderthal](http://www.bartleby.com/61/1/N0040100.html) is still listed in many dictionaries as the preffered spelling (and is pronounced in English with either a “th” or a “t” sound), but the spelling “Neandertal” is becoming increasingly popular (pronounced with a “t” sound). The name cames from the Neander valley in Germany where the first Neandert(h)al fossils were discovered; _tal_ is German for valley. AFAIK it’s always been pronounced “tal” by Germans, but there was a now archaic spelling of the word as “thal”. Incidentally, _t(h)al_ is also the root of the word [dollar](http://www.bartleby.com/61/85/D0328500.html). ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neandertal/154642/6 "2003-02-12T20:54:09Z")
“Tal” means valley in German. It used to be spelled “Thal” prior to 1903, when official orthography was reformed; this reform dropped the non-pronounced h after a lot of Ts, turning “Thal” into “Tal”. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neandertal/154642/7 "2003-02-12T21:02:59Z")
In English, the name of the valley in question would be the “Neander Valley.” The German word for valley, _tal_ used to be spelled _thal_ in parts of Germany. The old spelling was used for the term “Neanderthal.” However spelled, it was always pronounced, _in German_, with a hard “t.” The English pronunciation is kind of up in the air. Cite (with additional info): > **[Robert J. Sawyer: Hugo and Nebula Award-Winning Science Fiction Writer](https://www.sfwriter.com/hotal.htm)** > > Author of 24 bestselling novels including The Oppenheimer Alternative and FlashForward