# Near Death Experience : science vs. spirituality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723 "2005-03-22T15:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723/41 "2005-03-25T00:22:25Z")
> [@Joe Random](#): > > Not a very good comparison, since the flow of information through the brain is nothing like the flow of electricity through a wire. It’s not a single-point-in single-point-out affair. The brain is a densely interconnected network of neurons. Removing one, or ten, or ten-thousand potential paths from point A to point B doesn’t remove the connection between the two points. The brain simply starts strengthening other connections and other paths, since they’re now receiving much more stimulus than they did when the “primary” paths were active. > > You really should read up on neural networks sometime. Artificial neural nets are fully capable of self-modification, including “reprogramming” themselves if some of the neurons are damaged, and artificial networks don’t even begin to approach the complexity of the human brain. Based on that, I’d be surprised if the brain _couldn’t_ modify itself when damaged. > > Why not? If the spirit can react through a physical body, then there **must** be a physical way to detect this spirit. > > Science is doing nothing of the sort. It’s simply presenting consistent frameworks that explain observations much better than the alternative. Artificial is not real. Scientists can not explain many things that can be explained by spirit. Yes, science is trying to eradicate spirit, and it is only your opinion that science is better. Perhaps spending some time studing spirit will help you understand. I know a great deal more about neural networks that you know about spirit. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723/42 "2005-03-25T00:36:56Z")
> [@II Gyan II](#): > > You’re conflating the end effects with the means. For argument’s sake, let’s say there’s a supernatural force controlling a levitating ball. All you can see is the ball hanging there with no apparent coherence in its behaviour. The mechanism need not be empirically available, and hence not open to examination. Only the end effect (levitation). If it acts upon a physical object, then it uses physical means. > [@lekatt](#): > > Scientists can not explain many things that can be explained by spirit. Thats because spirit and IPUs can explain anything w/o regard to whether or not it’s a useful, true or otherwise worthwhile explanation. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723/43 "2005-03-25T00:40:31Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > If it acts upon a physical object, then it uses physical means. You’ll need to prove that physical entities form a closed system. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723/44 "2005-03-25T01:18:35Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Artificial is not real. What is that supposed to mean, exactly? Artificial neural nets are termed such because they use “artificial neurons”, not because they’re “not real”. Even a relatively simple such neural net can self-repair without the need for any external force to do the rewiring. Are you saying that the human brain is incapable of doing the same? > [@](#): > > Scientists can not explain many things that can be explained by spirit. So? Spirit cannot explain many things that can be explained by the Invisible Pink Unicorn. The ability to offer up an arbitrary explanation for a phenomenon should not be considered a mark of validity. Instead, we need to examine how **well** the explanation works, and how consistant it is, both internally and externally. > [@](#): > > Yes, science is trying to eradicate spirit Again I say, “nonsense”. Science isn’t trying to **do** anything at all, other than to offer a thorough and consistent explanation of the observable (and measurable) universe. There’s no goal or motivation for science to disprove spirituality. Now, individual scientists may have a bone to pick with spiritual explanations for things, but the science itself stands (or doesn’t) based on the facts. > [@](#): > > I know a great deal more about neural networks that you know about spirit. I sincerely doubt that, or you wouldn’t use such horribly flawed metaphors when discussing the brain. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723/45 "2005-03-25T01:44:46Z")
We’ve had many NDE threads with **Lekatt** before. Pam Reynolds? Ooh, have we debunked that. His claim that science is on some crusade to destroy spirituality? Do we even need to debunk this? The NDE he claims to have had? That would be the one, by own admission, which happened in his own home and his own bed. No doctor ever examined him and certified that his heart had stopped. His own wife, sleeping in the same bed, did not wake up. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723/46 "2005-03-25T02:50:00Z")
This thread has been hi-jacked, no talk of NDEs verses science anymore. so long. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723/47 "2005-03-25T04:07:57Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > This thread has been hi-jacked, no talk of NDEs verses science anymore. > > so long. We found a key that might be useful later on. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723/48 "2005-03-25T04:13:58Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > We found a key that might be useful later on. Now, now. _I_ love having **Lekatt** around. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723/49 "2005-03-25T04:24:14Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Now, now. > _I_ love having **Lekatt** around. Of course but it’s still nice to know there is an “idle switch.” ---
**Author:** ![Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scoundrel_Swanswater)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723/50 "2005-03-25T08:45:48Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > This thread has been hi-jacked, no talk of NDEs verses science anymore. > > so long. Indeed, I shouldn’t have summoned LeKatt. I thought he could give me some insite, but keeps spouting off indefensible rubbish as fact, because he thinks he “experienced” it. I am going to refrain from getting into discussions with him from here on out. He is pretty close-minded for a “spiritual” person. Admins, please close this thread. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723/51 "2005-03-25T13:40:36Z")
Maybe that’s what happens when one “knows truth” by merely seeing it w/o applying the rest of you God given faculties to it - eg ration thought etc. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723/52 "2005-03-26T14:40:37Z")
I posted writings backed up with real scientific studies, along with scientifically documented experiences. I know many people read them. But what got posted in the whole thread was a couple of sentences believed to be false. There was no discussion of any of the points I wrote about by anyone. Obviously they were rejected. Then the thread turned to personal data and attacks. Which always happens when no real rebuttal is available or known. But the thread was not in vain, as I said, many read the links and some emailed me with some very good thoughts and agreement. Most were lunkers who don’t want to post and get mauled by the skeptics. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723/53 "2005-03-26T15:12:54Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I posted … \ > … and get mauled by the skeptics. You will receive sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723/54 "2005-03-28T14:10:39Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > You will receive sympathy. Thanks, but none needed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experience-science-vs-spirituality/295723.md?page=2)