# Near-Death Experiences **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [January 27, 2006, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839 "2006-01-27T13:13:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/21 "2006-02-01T17:56:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How do you think kids are influenced by adults? Largely (and indeed, for something like this, almost exclusively) by being talked to. Are you telling me that kids can be old enough to be interviewed, and yet never have been exposed to any sort of religious belief? Because even the most rudimentary exposure to religion would include the concepts that Heaven is all glowey and there’s a big nice guy waiting for you there. How many parents do you think talk to their kids about NDEs. “Mommy, what happens when I die?” “Well, first …” The most plausible conversation I can see would be along the lines of, “Mommy, what happened to Grandpa when he died.” Standard responses: “I’m sure he went to heaven.” or “His heart got sick and stopped working.” or “Remember when Fluffy died? It was like that.” IMHO, it is far more plausible to propose that the interviewer asked leading questions, or influenced their responses. In fact, if the kid is young enough, it is very hard not to ask leading questions about almost anything, at least until their grasp of temporal sequencing is strong enough. ---
**Author:** ![dogbutler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dogbutler/32/428_2.png) [@dogbutler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dogbutler)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/22 "2006-02-01T19:32:55Z")
> [@SlowMindThinking](#): > > “Remember when Fluffy died? It was like that.” I get buried in a shoebox by the jacuzzi, then Spot digs me up and eats me? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/23 "2006-02-01T21:25:54Z")
> [@](#): > > One kid that Dr. Morse interviewed mentioned being fed honey by a bee. What sort of religion has friendly honeybees in heaven? When filtered through a child’s thought processes? Christianity and Judaism, at least, and probably Islam and a few others. If you’ve got a Land of Milk and Honey (yes, I know, originally the land of Israel, but also often applied to Heaven), then you’ve obviously got to have friendly honeybees to provide the honey. Makes perfect sense, to kids. And I’m not talking about parents telling their kids about NDEs, I’m talking about them telling them about Heaven, which I’m sure is much more common. “What happened to Grampa?” “He went to Heaven.” “What’s Heaven?” Even if the parents aren’t religious, or if nobody close to the child has died yet, ideas of religion and Heaven are sufficiently pervasive in our society that most kids are going to have some concept of Heaven very shortly after they learn language. ---
**Author:** ![cabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@cabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cabdude)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/24 "2006-02-01T22:15:12Z")
What about the similarity of NDE and [G-LOC](http://aeromedical.org/Articles/g-loc.html)? Pilots often report a sense of euphoria and well-being associated with the loss of consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/25 "2006-02-02T00:21:34Z")
Since this has been an interesting discussion I purchased _Closer To The Light_ by Melvin Morse and Paul Perry. I have not had time to read much of it, but it lists the following questions that were posed to the children in the study. What do you remember about being sick? Did you have any dreams or do you remember being unconcious? Tell me everything that you remember about being in the hospital. What happened next? What do you think happens after we die? Can you describe your Family’s religious beliefs? Can you draw me a picture of your experience in the hospital. He then mentions asking 26 questions from Bruce Greyson’s near-death experience questionare. It is not in the appendix and I have not had time to google it yet. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/26 "2006-02-02T04:55:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Land of Milk and Honey (yes, I know, originally the land of Israel, but also often applied to Heaven) “Often”? I’ve heard many metaphors for “heaven” but not this one. I have heard the phrase, though, but only in a “paradise” context. Anyway, the kid in question was about 5 (IIRC). Ever try to teach metaphors to a five-year-old? It’s easier to just give a straight answer. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/27 "2006-02-02T04:57:27Z")
Clairification: I meant an earlthbound paradise (like Israel), not someone’s pie-in-the-sky ideal. ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/28 "2006-02-02T08:50:35Z")
I wonder what’s become of **lekatt**? ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/29 "2006-02-02T15:41:57Z")
> [@dogbutler](#): > > I get buried in a shoebox by the jacuzzi, then Spot digs me up and eats me? > :eek: Well, it beats what happens to goldfish. ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/30 "2006-02-02T16:35:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > … > And I’m not talking about parents telling their kids about NDEs, I’m talking about them telling them about Heaven, which I’m sure is much more common. “What happened to Grampa?” “He went to Heaven.” “What’s Heaven?” Even if the parents aren’t religious, or if nobody close to the child has died yet, ideas of religion and Heaven are sufficiently pervasive in our society that most kids are going to have some concept of Heaven very shortly after they learn language. Does one of the major religions or denominations in America teach that their is the passage to heaven through a tunnel of light? Or that an out of body experience occurs? The only parts of the near death experiences that sounds remotely like a Jewish or Christian teaching I know of would be the life history review with a kindly being of light and seeing loved ones. There is the question of how one gets to heaven, but I don’t recall hearing anyone describing it as traveling through a tunnel of light. I would be interested in knowing if anybody ever sees a bad person when they get “to the other side.” Does anyone see someone who molested them as a child? Does anyone ever see people who are actually still alive? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/31 "2006-02-02T18:39:37Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Anyway, the kid in question was about 5 (IIRC). Okay, I checked the article and turns out the kid was 8. > [@](#): > > {He] recalled going into a “huge noodle” and entering an “animal tunnel,” where a bee gave him honey and took him to heaven. Also mentioned in the article is a girl (no age given) who described being “aboard a rowdy schoolbus where two tall doctors showed her a green button she could push to wake up.” > [@](#): > > The Seattle study focused on 147 critically ill kids–26 of whom came close to dying–at Children’s Hospital in Seattle. Their ages ranged from 3 to 17. > > :snip: > > [O]f the 26 children who came close to dying, all but two reported NDEs that were eerily similar to what Moody had described. Yet of the 121 patients who were less ill but still unconscous, not one reported an NDE. > > :snip: > > In addition, Morse stumbled upon one more twist. While Moody suggests that those crossing into another realm share similar experiences (e.g., serenity, separation from the body, going to the light), Morse found that NDEs were, in fact, quite idosyncratic. As to why Dr. Morse focused on kids: > [@](#): > > “The adult near-death experience is cluttered by cultural references and contaminated by the need for validation. But in kids, it’s pure. Kids don’t repress the memory or fear the ridicule that might come from talking about it.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/32 "2006-02-02T18:53:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Does one of the major religions or denominations in America teach … that an out of body experience occurs? I’ve never heard of a religion with an afterlife which doesn’t teach that one. You tell the kid that Grampa went to Heaven. But Grampa’s body is quite clearly still lying there in that big box. Ergo, that which is really Grampa, the part which went to Heaven, left his body. I will grant that kids are less likely to suppress their experiences, or to clean them up according to some agenda. But there’s no way you can argue that they’re free from cultural references. Even something as apparently bizarre as a schoolbus, doctors, and a big green button is a cultural reference: Do you think that a dying kid two centuries ago, or in the third world today, would have experienced busses, medical professionals, and control buttons? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/33 "2006-02-02T19:01:42Z")
> [@](#): > > He recalled going into a “huge noodle” … a bee gave him honey > [@](#): > > a girl who described being "aboard a rowdy schoolbus > [@](#): > > "The adult is cluttered by cultural references and contaminated . But in kids, it’s pure No—the kids are NOT “pure”—they are just as cluttered by cultural expectations as adults. Noodles…bees…schoolbus… Those references only make sense to _American_ kids. Would a child in Somalia “see” the same things? I’ll buy the stories about bright lights and a peaceful feeling just before death—probably for simple biological reasons, as the brain cells stop firing. But everything else seems like UFO stories–people see what they’ve been taught to expect ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/34 "2006-02-02T19:28:39Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > No—the kids are NOT “pure”—they are just as cluttered by cultural expectations as adults. > Noodles…bees…schoolbus… > Those references only make sense to _American_ kids. Would a child in Somalia “see” the same things? The point that Dr. Morse makes is that none of these children “see” the same things, contrary to what’s been postulated by [Dr. Raymond Moody](http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts03.html). > [@](#): > > people see what they’ve been taught to expect Who taught the girl to expect a school bus? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/35 "2006-02-02T19:41:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ve I will grant that kids are less likely to suppress their experiences, or to clean them up according to some agenda. But there’s no way you can argue that they’re free from cultural references. Even something as apparently bizarre as a schoolbus, doctors, and a big green button is a cultural reference: Do you think that a dying kid two centuries ago, or in the third world today, would have experienced busses, medical professionals, and control buttons? I think Dr. Morse means “popular culture”, i.e.: movies and the like. ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/36 "2006-02-02T21:41:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ve never heard of a religion with an afterlife which doesn’t teach that one. You tell the kid that Grampa went to Heaven. But Grampa’s body is quite clearly still lying there in that big box. Ergo, that which is really Grampa, the part which went to Heaven, left his body. > > I will grant that kids are less likely to suppress their experiences, or to clean them up according to some agenda. But there’s no way you can argue that they’re free from cultural references. Even something as apparently bizarre as a schoolbus, doctors, and a big green button is a cultural reference: Do you think that a dying kid two centuries ago, or in the third world today, would have experienced busses, medical professionals, and control buttons? I think your second paragraph is much closer to the mark. I think that as certain stimuli are detected as cells react to the death process. What remains of the mind interprets as best it can. As far as the first paragraph, you might be right that children assume a spirit world heaven, but you might be wrong. All variations of Christianity of which I am aware teach a “bodily resurrection”. It is in the Apostle’s Creed, I believe. However, it seems to me that most people assume a spiritual resurrection, so perhaps you are right, and children assume a heaven inhabited by spirits of some form. In any case, the out of body experiences associated with NDEs - witnessing events in this world from an overhead vantage point - are neither taught nor implied by Christianity. (AFAIK some [Asian] Indian beliefs include them.) If you polled a large number of young children, I bet you’d find most think you just show up in heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/37 "2006-02-03T00:40:40Z")
> [@](#): > > **SlowMindThinking** : All variations of Christianity of which I am aware teach a “bodily resurrection”. It is in the Apostle’s Creed, I believe. My understanding is that the [Nicene Creed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed#Traditional_.28from_Book_of_Common_Prayer.29) is the mostly widely used and does not specify a _bodily_ resurrection. I am uncertain if all translations and interpretations have always been that way. ---
**Author:** ![clennon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@clennon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clennon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/38 "2006-02-03T02:28:32Z")
Cecil sort of touched on the psychedelic aspect of this question, but I’m surprised no one has mentioned the recent questions/suggestions about DMT in relation to NDE’s, dreams, etc: [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0892819278/ref=sib\_rdr\_dp/103-7731152-0507858?\_encoding=UTF8&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&no=283155&st=books&n=283155](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0892819278/ref=sib_rdr_dp/103-7731152-0507858?%5Fencoding=UTF8&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&no=283155&st=books&n=283155) fascinating book, not very scientific but the source that Cecil liberally quoted from didn’t sound too scientific either…either way it’s a fascinating proposal IMO ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839/39 "2006-02-04T02:35:53Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > My understanding is that the [Nicene Creed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed#Traditional_.28from_Book_of_Common_Prayer.29) is the mostly widely used and does not specify a _bodily_ resurrection. I am uncertain if all translations and interpretations have always been that way. I found a link that states the only creed used by the Orthodox churches is the Nicene creed. This must be because it predates the ecumenical councils that delineated the Orthodox doctrine. The Apostle’s Creed predates the Nicene creed by over 100 years - there are written forms of it that date back to 215 AD. The Apostle’s creed is widely accepted by the Latin (as opposed to Greek) churches. However, all the Orthodox sites I look at only address the resurrection of Christ, not his followers. (Except one, which does mention bodily resurrection, but I’m less than confident of the site’s legitimacy.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/near-death-experiences/341839.md?page=1)