# Neat trick in reading bass clef. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 15, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neat-trick-in-reading-bass-clef/801695 "2017-11-15T16:40:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neat-trick-in-reading-bass-clef/801695/21 "2017-11-15T21:10:02Z")
Brilliant, **aceplace57**! If you erase the topmost of the five lines in bass clef, and add a line below, it would be even simpler! Now there are two missing lines between the treble five lines and the bass’ five. The clef symbol will be left where it is of course, with its top therefore extending beyond the five lines. This will jog away any confusion and provides backwards compatibility. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neat-trick-in-reading-bass-clef/801695/22 "2017-11-15T22:32:09Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > 🙂 ok, I thought I was on to something good. It’s called a G-clef and an F-clef because that’s the notes that those clefs mark on the staff. It used to actually look like a “G”, then became more and more stylized. [See here for the historical progression](http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/design/files/2013/05/clef-evolution.jpg). To be properly written, the treble clef must be written so the curlicue basically “circles” the note G4 on the staff. Similarly, the F-clef started out as an “F” and [evolved to the current symbol.](http://www.highhopes.com/blocke.JPG) Today, the F-clef is only seen used as a bass clef, with the markings indicating F3 centered around the second line from the top of the staff. If you go back a few hundred years, you can find manuscripts with the F-clef one line down, making it a “baritone clef,” rather than “bass clef.” [Here is an example](http://www.editions-classique.com/repupload/ImageProduit/35_3_.jpg). That’s an A-minor triad in the treble clef over an A bass in the baritone clef (not an F, which is what it would be if the clef was in the standard bass clef position. See how the two dots of the clef are centered around the middle line of the staff, rather than the second from the top? That means “hey! this line here in between the dots is where F is.”) OK, I know I’m probably confusing the hell out of you. All I want to underscore is that the reason it’s called a G-clef and an F-clef (and a C-clef) is because the symbols themselves show where on the staff the G (above middle C), the F (below middle C), and the (middle) C are. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neat-trick-in-reading-bass-clef/801695/23 "2017-11-16T01:01:13Z")
I read the links. It cleared up the questions I had. The Wikipedia article is good. > **[Clef](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clef)** > > A clef (from French: clef 'key') is a musical symbol used to indicate which notes are represented by the lines and spaces on a musical staff. Placing a clef on a staff assigns a particular pitch to one of the five lines, which defines the pitches on the remaining lines and spaces. > The three clef symbols used in modern music notation are the G-clef, F-clef, and C-clef. Placing these clefs on a line fixes a reference note to that line—an F-clef fixes the F below middle C, a C-clef fixes middle C... ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neat-trick-in-reading-bass-clef/801695/24 "2017-11-16T02:50:10Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > So the G clef and F clef are a step apart. > > That’s why the A note, for example, appears in a different location on the two staffs? All the notes move down a full step when written on the bass staff. I started taking piano in first grade. I learned the grand staff as one thing, and it’s much easier to understand if you think of it that way. The bottom line of the treble clef is e, the space below that is d, the ledger line in between is c, the space at the top of the bass clef is b, the first line is a, etc. Then the lines from bottom to top go g-b-d-f-a-c-e-g-b-d-f, with c being the ledger line between the treble and bass clefs. Spaces run f-a-c-e-g-b-d-f-a-c-e. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neat-trick-in-reading-bass-clef/801695/25 "2017-11-16T02:51:58Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > I started taking piano in first grade. I learned the grand staff as one thing, and it’s much easier to understand if you think of it that way. The bottom line of the treble clef is e, the space below that is d, the ledger line in between is c, the space at the top of the bass clef is b, the first line is a, etc. Then the lines from bottom to top go g-b-d-f-a-c-e-g-b-d-f, with c being the ledger line between the treble and bass clefs. Spaces run f-a-c-e-g-b-d-f-a-c-e. That’s kind of how I think of it as well, as one thing, with the middle C bridging the bottom of the treble clef with the top of the bass clef. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neat-trick-in-reading-bass-clef/801695/26 "2017-11-16T03:23:17Z")
I’ve always regretted that I didn’t study piano early in my life. There’s no way mom would have rented or bought a 500 lb piano. There was no place to set it up and the cost for private lessons would have been prohibitive. We never saw the grand staff in Orchestra. We only got sheet music for our section. The first and second violin sections played slightly different parts. I’m having a blast with piano lessons now. I’m using a digital keyboard. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neat-trick-in-reading-bass-clef/801695/27 "2017-11-16T04:31:39Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > I started taking piano in first grade. I learned the grand staff as one thing, and it’s much easier to understand if you think of it that way. The bottom line of the treble clef is e, the space below that is d, the ledger line in between is c, the space at the top of the bass clef is b, the first line is a, etc. Then the lines from bottom to top go g-b-d-f-a-c-e-g-b-d-f, with c being the ledger line between the treble and bass clefs. Spaces run f-a-c-e-g-b-d-f-a-c-e. My brother was a music teacher, and my father played violin. I saw the middle-c ledger line in a beginner’s music book. With that specific information, I actually taught myself (slowly) to read music and play simple things on the piano. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neat-trick-in-reading-bass-clef/801695/28 "2017-11-16T08:35:42Z")
I first learned to read music p[laying a sousaphone, so I started off in bass clef. It took me a while in music theory class years later to adjust to treble clef. Oh, sheet music for guitar is transposed. 1st fret 2nd string on a standard tuned guitar is really middle c. ---
**Author:** ![Jumpbass](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jumpbass/32/147_2.png) [@Jumpbass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jumpbass)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neat-trick-in-reading-bass-clef/801695/29 "2017-11-16T16:58:59Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I first learned to read music p[laying a sousaphone, so I started off in bass clef. It took me a while in music theory class years later to adjust to treble clef. > > Oh, sheet music for guitar is transposed. 1st fret 2nd string on a standard tuned guitar is really middle c. Music for bass is transposed, too. Up an octave. That puts the notes on the staff rather than a mess of ledger lines below the staff like tuba music. A trick I use to read alto or bari sax music, which is in Eb, is to just pretend it’s actually bass clef, but add three flats to the key signature. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neat-trick-in-reading-bass-clef/801695.md?page=1)