# Nebbish saves your life in exchange for promise of future sex. Do yu pay up? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 21, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514 "2016-07-21T19:03:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/161 "2016-07-24T19:15:03Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > If you’re seriously claiming that the preposterous “ **Skald** is a rape apologist” is a reasonable conclusion from his attempt to dissect and question the relevant ethical principles here, maybe you should stay away from hypotheticals. I do not believe Lamia is trying to do that. I choose to believe that in a fairly long thread, Lamia missed that I had differentiated the financial promise from the sexual one. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/162 "2016-07-24T19:22:51Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I think Sean should just ask for a kiss later first. > > Then when the victim says yes, he ups it to sex. Now its just a matter of degree, not principle. Actually, after the kiss is accepted, Sean should immediately up his demands to weird S&M plus anal fisting, all recorded and posted online. Then, the victim can haggle that back down to just vanilla sex, and walk away thinking they got off easy. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/163 "2016-07-24T19:24:55Z")
Did you also read the “Art of the Deal” ? 🙂 Damnit, now I really gotta go. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/164 "2016-07-24T19:45:08Z")
Hypothetical: Sean points a gun at me and says: “promise to have sex with me next week”. I make that promise, obviously under duress. We go our separate ways. For neutral reasons, we never meet again. What is Sean guilty of? I think he’s guilty of some offense beyond just brandishing a weapon or intimidating, but I’m not sure what to call it, either legally or ethically. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/165 "2016-07-24T19:49:13Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Hypothetical: > > Sean points a gun at me and says: “promise to have sex with me next week”. > I make that promise, obviously under duress. > We go our separate ways. For neutral reasons, we never meet again. > > What is Sean guilty of? I think he’s guilty of some offense beyond just brandishing a weapon, but I’m not sure what to call it, either legally or ethically. I think Sean’s guilty of making a terroristic threat and of assault, but not of rape pr attempted rape, because no overt act has been performed ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/166 "2016-07-24T19:57:11Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Sure you have. No, I haven’t. Please quote where I’ve done any such thing. > [@](#): > > You say that it’s okay, in order to save your own life, to entice Sean into risking her life with a promise and then to break that promise. That’s not the same thing as _expecting_ anything. > [@](#): > > If Sean had demanded payment ahead of time – said “Give me your Rolex right now and I’ll keep trying to push this rubble off you” – and then skedaddled after taking it, you’d call her actions immoral, I"m sure. Damn skippy. > [@](#): > > I don’t see how refusing to pay for a priceless service which you desperately needed, which Sean had no obligation to provide, and which put her in substantial dange, is any less immoral. Because the person doing the “putting in danger” is Sean. Offering reward is _not_ the same as putting a gun to their head. They’re doing it for some sort of internal cost-benefit calculation - a wrong one, it turns out. That I did it to them, however, isn’t immoral. It is not immoral to lie to save your own life in a scenario as outlined, IMO. > [@](#): > > One of the variant has the person in jeopardy initiate the proposed exchange, offering to pay Sean to undertake the risk. Others have said they’re still okay with stiffing Sean in that circumstance as well. Are you? Yes. Get this clear, one last time - **it doesn’t _matter_ who initiates the exchange, or how well off anyone is, or whether it’s sex or a teddy bear that’s at stake.** \*\*\*All \*\*\*that matters to me is whether the person making the promises is in mortal danger. _ **Anything** _ they say under those circumstances to save their life is non-binding. Anything. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/167 "2016-07-24T20:02:46Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I think Sean’s guilty of making a terroristic threat and of assault, but not of rape pr attempted rape, because no overt act has been performed Yes, as I recall the legal definition of “assault” does not require fulfillment of the threatened act, so presumably he could be guilty of sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/168 "2016-07-24T20:04:42Z")
Note that it would be very different if I’d promised to pay Sean, last week, to try and save my life if I ever happened to be in a life-threatening situation (i.e. basically paying Sean to be my bodyguard/personal rescue worker) - then, yes, it would be immoral not to pay them. But _starting_ the whole deal with my life in danger makes the whole thing different. And I _still_ wouldn’t fuck them. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/169 "2016-07-24T20:08:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > …\*\*\*All \*\*\*that matters to me is whether the person making the promises is in mortal danger. _ **Anything** _ they say under those circumstances to save their life is non-binding. Anything. I get that, but you haven’t addressed the question of where to draw the line on what constitutes mortal danger. It seems to me that there’s a continuum running between the extremes of imminent threat of sudden death, and (say) needing a kidney transplant at some time within the next year. Is there some bright line that you see, or do you just accept that “degree of duress” it’s a quantitative question, and we have to choose an arbitrary threshold as best we can in deciding whether the duress was great enough that a promise is (ethically or legally) non-binding? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/170 "2016-07-24T20:13:33Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I do not believe Lamia is trying to do that. I choose to believe that in a fairly long thread, Lamia missed that I had differentiated the financial promise from the sexual one. Maybe so, but I think before throwing around offensive accusations like that, the burden is upon **Lamia** to read more carefully. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/171 "2016-07-24T20:48:26Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Maybe so, but I think before throwing around offensive accusations like that, the burden is upon **Lamia** to read more carefully. One of my rules for living is that, when a behavior may be explained as an innocent mistake rather than malice, prefer the former explanation, because you don’t have to be angry as much. Lamia has never said anything like that to me before that I recall, so unless she repeats the accusation I will assume that it was just an error. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/172 "2016-07-24T20:53:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > . . . \*\*it doesn’t _matter_ who initiates the exchange . . . \*\* Maybe a little? If Sean says, “I’ll rescue you, but you have to pay me ten grand,” that’s bad. If Sean is nearby, and I open the bidding – “Hey, Sean, rescue me and I’ll pay you ten grand” – then that lets Sean off from the charge of extortion. Even in this case, I don’t have to pay. The situation is, itself, coercive. There was no “meeting of minds,” because I’m in a position where I cannot make a free decision. The difference is that if Sean makes the initial offer, I’m ashamed of Sean, whereas if I make the initial offer, then, later, when I’ve had time to get my moral bearings again, I’ll be slightly embarrassed at having fallen so far into desperation – c’mon, man, where’s your stoicism? – but I won’t hold myself in scorn for having done anything morally wrong. If I’m in trouble, I’ll ask for help. But one ought to try not to beg. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/173 "2016-07-24T21:21:11Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Maybe a little? > > If Sean says, “I’ll rescue you, but you have to pay me ten grand,” that’s bad. If Sean is nearby, and I open the bidding – “Hey, Sean, rescue me and I’ll pay you ten grand” – then that lets Sean off from the charge of extortion. > > Even in this case, I don’t have to pay. The situation is, itself, coercive. There was no “meeting of minds,” because I’m in a position where I cannot make a free decision. If you have no ethical obligation to repay Sean for saving your life from a danger Sean did not create, then why do I have an ethical obligation to pay my ER bill, especially giventhat the ER doctor and nurses did not endanger their lives in saving mine and had an professional obligation to help me? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/174 "2016-07-24T22:58:50Z")
Because you’ve agreed in advance. No one came to you right when you’re having the heart attack and said, “Oh, by the way, we’re tacking on a $5,000 surcharge.” You’ve signed a contract, now, in full competence, that you will pay what you owe. I do agree that it is troubling when an Emergency Room admissions nurse makes you sign a paper, at the same time you might be in extreme pain or other desperation. However, there are also extensive procedures in place to review such matters. There is an appeals process. (I knew someone who went to the E.R. in such extreme pain, she was crying, “Kill me. Please, just kill me.” Do you imagine that desire carries contractual weight?) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/175 "2016-07-24T23:33:00Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Because you’ve agreed in advance. No one came to you right when you’re having the heart attack and said, “Oh, by the way, we’re tacking on a $5,000 surcharge.” > > You’ve signed a contract, now, in full competence, that you will pay what you owe. > > I do agree that it is troubling when an Emergency Room admissions nurse makes you sign a paper, at the same time you might be in extreme pain or other desperation. However, there are also extensive procedures in place to review such matters. There is an appeals process. > > (I knew someone who went to the E.R. in such extreme pain, she was crying, “Kill me. Please, just kill me.” Do you imagine that desire carries contractual weight?) I don’t see the difference between being in the ER in urgent need of care, but enough time to fill out a form, and being in that basement. It’s not like you go can shopping for the best option in either case. Unless your point is that only written agreements have any ethical force. . Seems to me that Sean’s ethical claim to payment is stronger than the ER’s. Sean is putting her life in peril by helping you; the ER doctor is not. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/176 "2016-07-25T00:41:53Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > If you’re seriously claiming that the preposterous “ **Skald** is a rape apologist” is a reasonable conclusion from his attempt to dissect and question the relevant ethical principles here, maybe you should stay away from hypotheticals. Looking at my previous post again, I see places where my choice of words – and probably my thoughts – were unclear. I have a wrist problem that’s flared up this weekend and is making it difficult for me to type, so getting through even short posts is requiring a lot more time and effort than usual. But I did make sure to say at the end that I did not consider it likely that **Skald** _meant_ to even indirectly defend rape. However, he has made posts that _looked_ that way to me. I found this particularly troubling because it’s NOT the sort of thing I’d expect from **Skald** , even in a thread with IMHO a pretty disturbing OP. If I were posting things that looked bad to posters who generally thought well of me then I’d want to know, _especially_ if I were coming across in a way that I did not intend. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I do not believe Lamia is trying to do that. I choose to believe that in a fairly long thread, Lamia missed that I had differentiated the financial promise from the sexual one. I saw that you had made this distinction in a previous post, although not the one I was responding to. But the thing is, this thread is _about_ the sexual promise. It’s right there in the title. In a different thread then statements about how “refusing to pay” is “immoral” would come across very differently, but in _this_ thread it’s going to be colored by your OP. While threads can and do change direction, I think you’d do better to start a new thread to talk about financial promises. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/177 "2016-07-25T01:02:27Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t see the difference between being in the ER in urgent need of care, but enough time to fill out a form, and being in that basement. It’s not like you go can shopping for the best option in either case. . . . You’ve already signed a contract with the insurance company, before you had the medical complication. That’s your signature, right there, on the enrollment form. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/178 "2016-07-25T01:45:53Z")
Lets say rather than Sean, you have Pat or Leslie. Pat or Leslie under NO circumstances will hang around to save your butt, even if the risk to themselves is minor/non existant (like you are pinned in a slowly flooding basement). Who is “worse”? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/179 "2016-07-25T01:52:10Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > You’ve already signed a contract with the insurance company, before you had the medical complication. That’s your signature, right there, on the enrollment form. In early 2003 I didn’t have insurance, but I did have a fair bit of money in the bank. I had to go to the ER and agree to pay for services. The bill was something like $5,000. That was about a third of what I had in savings at that time. I could do it, do it, but it would hurt. I might have died without the ER’s services, so I had no choice but to agree to the terms. Was I ethically obliged to pay the bill? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514/180 "2016-07-25T01:58:35Z")
Another thought. Your boss promises you a raise for sex. People get in trouble doing that. But nobody calls that rape. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nebbish-saves-your-life-in-exchange-for-promise-of-future-sex-do-yu-pay-up/760514.md?page=10)