# Need a List of Glorious/Much Celebrated Military Defeats **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 28, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563 "2006-05-28T20:29:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spezza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Spezza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spezza)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/21 "2006-05-29T01:03:07Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > And yet, somehow, the losers in each of these encounters have become heroes in many circles. That is only because, in the end, they were the ultimate victor. History, being written by the victor, is able to celebrate - or invent - heroic defeats. Though, I am sure, somebody will prove me wrong; you will not find a military defeat that is celebrated by the defeated, unless they ended up successful in winning the larger conflict. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/22 "2006-05-29T01:33:13Z")
[Gallipoli, WWI](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli) In Australia and New Zealand, this defeat is of such importance to the people that its commemorative day, Anzac Day, is seen by many as the national day rather than the official national days of the two countries. This is primarily because of the timing of the thing. Many blame British incompetence for the heavy casualties, causing some resentment there, and this came at a time when the two young countries were looking for a national identity. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/23 "2006-05-29T01:55:41Z")
“La Garde meurt, mais ne se rend pas!” (The Guard dies, but never surrenders!) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/24 "2006-05-29T02:00:33Z")
I hope we’re all remembering the Alamo. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/25 "2006-05-29T02:08:40Z")
> [@Spezza](#): > > That is only because, in the end, they were the ultimate victor. History, being written by the victor, is able to celebrate - or invent - heroic defeats. > > Though, I am sure, somebody will prove me wrong; you will not find a military defeat that is celebrated by the defeated, unless they ended up successful in winning the larger conflict. That’s certainly true of the 3 examples in my original post, but it’s not true of Masada (the Romans crushed the Jewish rebellion) or the American Civil War (which many Southerners still romanticize, despite the Union Army’s victory). ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/26 "2006-05-29T02:22:28Z")
> [@Mbossa](#): > > Australia and New Zealand celebrate ANZAC Day on the 25th of April … the date was chosen as the anniversary of the military defeat at Gallipoli at 1915. No, the date is the anniversary of the landings. There isn’t really a set date for the defeat as it was not a single battle but a campaign waged over some months. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/27 "2006-05-29T02:24:16Z")
> [@Laughing Lagomorph](#): > > Pearl Harbor? I don’t think that counts. That wasn’t a battle, that was a sneak attack that caught the US unawares. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/28 "2006-05-29T02:27:06Z")
> [@Spezza](#): > > That is only because, in the end, they were the ultimate victor. History, being written by the victor, is able to celebrate - or invent - heroic defeats. > > Though, I am sure, somebody will prove me wrong; you will not find a military defeat that is celebrated by the defeated, unless they ended up successful in winning the larger conflict. As a comment (not that ppl disagree with this,) this rule even goes for the previously mentioned American South. They lost the war, but Reconstruction meant that the (rich white) Southerners didn’t lose as badly as many others have during history. And in the long long term the South is actually the winner: while still not as rich, they are far more influential politically than any other region of similar population in America. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/29 "2006-05-29T02:36:24Z")
> [@Governor Quinn](#): > > Charles George “Chinese” Gordon’s defeat and death in Khartoum in 1885. Well, that’s technically not a military defeat: Gordon was the only Englishman in Khartoum at the time, and commanded no troops. It was more a martyrdom, which Gordon went to almost too gladly. There’s the battle of [Battle of Camarón](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Camar%C3%B3n) in France’s invasion of Mexico in the 1860s; a Foreign Legion unit of under 70 men fought over 1600 Mexicans down to the last three men, who insisted on conditions before surrendering. It was a point of pride for the Foreign Legion (probably still is), and it looks like the Mexican still respect it. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/30 "2006-05-29T02:57:19Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > That’s certainly true of the 3 examples in my original post, but it’s not true of Masada (the Romans crushed the Jewish rebellion) or the American Civil War (which many Southerners still romanticize, despite the Union Army’s victory). And it’s certainly not true of Culloden Field. ---
**Author:** ![633squadron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/ee59a6/32.png) [@633squadron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/633squadron)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/31 "2006-05-29T03:34:42Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > The siege of Masada would probably qualify. Hmmm. Depends. The motto used in reference to Masada is “Never Again!” It’s remembered, but not as a victory. Nor is Pearl Harbor remembered as a victory. although we’re fascinated by it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/32 "2006-05-29T04:39:57Z")
The Easter Rising in Dublin in 1916. The rebels were defeated, but it sparked the eventual independence of Ireland. Another is the Battle of Bunker (Breed’s) Hill, in which the American revolutionaries were defeated but at great cost to the British. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/33 "2006-05-29T04:49:53Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > I hope we’re all remembering the Alamo. Mentioned in the OP. Bunker Hill, Lexington, and Concord from the American Revolution should count. They were all technically British victories. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/34 "2006-05-29T05:01:01Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Well, that’s technically not a military defeat: Gordon was the only Englishman in Khartoum at the time, and commanded no troops. It was more a martyrdom, which Gordon went to almost too gladly. General Gordon commanded an Egyptian garrison in Khartoum. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/35 "2006-05-29T05:25:49Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > I don’t think that counts. That wasn’t a battle, that was a sneak attack that caught the US unawares. Eh, they attacked us, we fought back, there was battling involved. The fact that it was a suprise attack doesn’t really make it not a battle. It is worth noting that the US military was expecting a Japanese attack to happen around that time, but they were expecting the hammer to fall in the Philippines, and not in Hawaii (of course, the hammer ended up falling in both Hawaii and the Philippines, though there were several hours delay between the two attacks). But yeah, here in Texas, the only example that comes to mind is the Siege of the Alamo. Are we only counting actual historical battles? If we include fiction, we can toss in the Battle of Hoth and the Battle of Wolf 359 as celebrated defeats (well, celebrated only by Star Wars fans and Trekkies, respectively in these cases). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/36 "2006-05-29T06:42:39Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > That wasn’t a defeat. The Light Brigade successfully attacked the guns. Yeah, the _wrong_ guns. I don’t think they disabled them, either, or captured them. They just reached them and turned back. Anyway, two “heroic defeats” feom Jewish history: 1. The Bar Cochvah Revolt in the 2nd Century. It ended with a resounding defeat and the near-genocide of the country, but until that point managed to put up one of the fiencest fights the Empire ever fought, requiring 10 legions to suppress. Roman casualties were so severe that upon returning to Rome, the commanding general did not make the traditional announcement to the Senate that “the army is well.” 2. The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, 1943. Even though it only started after much of the ghetto had been sent off to the camps, and it ended with the death of most of the defenders, they managed to give as good as they got. The Germans were unable to take the Ghetto by force and were forced to burn it down. Mainly, it’s famous because it was the first time a Jewish military force fought for a Jewish cause since, well, the Bar Cochva Revolt in the 2nd century ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/37 "2006-05-29T15:31:48Z")
I’m not sure how “celebrated” it might be, but another defeat en route to ultimate victory was that of Cortez on the [_Noche Triste_](http://www.calstatela.edu/orgs/mecha/nochepart7.htm), when he was driven from Tenochtilan by the Aztecs. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/38 "2006-05-29T15:59:52Z")
Shouldn’t the Irish have a whole slew of these? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/39 "2006-05-29T16:21:06Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Shouldn’t the Irish have a whole slew of these? Most battles fought in Ireland for the last 1000 years could qualify, since although the Irish were mostly defeated they continued to sing songs about them for centuries. Some of the better known are; Battle of the Boyne (1690). Battles of Antrim and Ballynahinch (1798). Fenian Rising (1867). and of course the Easter Rising which I already mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/40 "2006-05-29T18:45:16Z")
The 1973 Arab Israeli war. The Egyptina army caught Israel sleeping and almost won a huge victory. But within 10 days, they had retreated behind where they started, and were in danger of having Israeli tanks rolling into Cairo. So it was a total defeat militarily (though not politically). Yet Egypt proudly celebrates it every year with major military parades. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563.md?page=3)