# Need a List of Glorious/Much Celebrated Military Defeats **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 28, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563 "2006-05-28T20:29:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/61 "2006-05-31T19:34:06Z")
The Boston Massacre might qualify for the OP. The townspeople were driven off, leaving their dead behind in the snow, and the British troops stood their ground. But it radicalized the colony and was a huge propaganda coup for the Sons of Liberty. **Colibri** has correctly recalled the 1862 Battle of Hampton Roads. I would differ slightly on his conclusion. The _Virginia_’s mission was to break the blockade; she failed. The _Monitor_’s mission was to protect the \*Minnesota \* and, more broadly, to preserve the blockade; she succeeded (despite having two guns to the _Virginia_’s ten, and about 60 men to the _Virginia_’s 300). ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/62 "2006-05-31T19:45:01Z")
Chapultepec - one of the battles fought during Winfield Scott’s march from Veracruz to Mexico city during the Mexican-American war was at the Mexican military academy. The Americans won but IIRC the cadets are remembered as heroes in a glorious defeat. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/63 "2006-05-31T20:15:16Z")
> [@MMI](#): > > Chapultepec - one of the battles fought during Winfield Scott’s march from Veracruz to Mexico city during the Mexican-American war was at the Mexican military academy. The Americans won but IIRC the cadets are remembered as heroes in a glorious defeat. I’m glad you mentioned that. I thought of doing so but didn’t: [Battle of Chapultepec](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chapultepec) > [@](#): > > Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna was in command of the army at Mexico City. He understood that Chapultepec Castle was an important position for the defense of the city. The castle sat atop a 200 foot hill which in recent years was being used as the Mexican Military Academy. General Nicolás Bravo however had less than 1,000 men to hold the hill including 200 cadets, some as young as 13 years old. A gradual slope from the castle down to the Molino del Rey made an inviting attack point. > > . . . > > Los Niños Héroes > > During the battle, six Mexican military cadets refused to fall back when General Bravo finally ordered retreat, and fought to the death against superior U.S. forces. One by one they fell; when one was left (Juan Escutia), and the US forces about to kill him, he grabbed the Mexican flag, wrapped it around himself and jumped off the castle point. > > A moving mural decorates the ceiling of the palace, showing Juan Escutia wrapped in the flag, apparently falling from above. A monument stands in Chapultepec Park commemorating their courage. The cadets are eulogized in Mexican history as the Los Niños Héroes, the “Child Heroes” or Heroic Cadets. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/64 "2006-05-31T23:56:00Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Two (not three or four) Union ships were destroyed, the _Cumberland_ being sunk and the _Congress_ blowing up after running aground. The \*Monitor \* was able to rescue the _Minnesota_, which had also run aground, when it arrived the next day. Two other Union ships escaped without help from the _Monitor_. (Sorry, had tried posting a response to this earlier - computer problems, then I just forgot about it.) You’re right, **Colibri** , about the tally of ships lost. (And I knew that before **Elendil’s Heir** spoke up.) I always think of it as one lost to the Virginia’s ram, and the rest destroyed by gunfire. Not a very accurate record. > [@](#): > > The battle was inconclusive, in that neither side achieved its objectives (and that is the determinant of defeat or victory, not the number of ships destroyed). The \*Virginia \* did not destroy the Union fleet or break the blockade, while the Union was unable to destroy the _Virginia_ and it remained a threat. But the battle was certainly a Union _strategic_ victory, since the Union fleet was able to stay at Hampton Roads. The _Virginia_ failed in its mission, even though it won the initial engagement. Well, to describe it as a fleet action, where the fate of individual ships is immaterial to a decision about victory or defeat, is also a bit of a mistake. AIUI first the _Cumberland_ was on her own against the _Virginia_, then the _Congress_ alone against the _Virginia_. Of course, part of that had been because Virginia deliberately got up close with her targets - making fire from other vessels difficult. Making things even more problematical is that the battle took place over two days. While not unusual for a land battle, it’s rare in a naval engagement - esp. since the _Virginia_ departed the battleground as evening came on, and then planned to come back to destroy the _Minnesota_, which had grounded itself trying to run from the threat. I believe that it’s more accurate to state the goals of the two ships on the second day of the battle as: the _Virginia_ was to break the blockade - I don’t know whether it was a plan for the Confederate Navy to send her up the Potomac to shell Washington, but that was one of the fears at the end of the first day; the _Monitor_ was to destroy the _Virginia_. As you say, both sides failed in their goals. Upthread we’ve had a victory defined as preventing the opponent from achieving his goals. I’m not sure I agree with that - by that standard, both the Union and Confederates won this battle. As you say, though, maintaining the blockade was a Union strategic victory. But by failing to destroy the _Virginia_ the Confederates also achieved a strategic victory: They had proven that nothing short of an ironclad would survive against the _Virginia_, so the _Monitor_ was required in the area to keep the _Virginia_ in check. But because of the flaws in the _Monitor_’s design, she was far from being an all-weather vessel. So other vessels were needed to actually maintain the blockade. Tying up resources that could have been used for other missions. Not a dramatic strategic victory, but still worth doing. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563/65 "2006-06-01T03:45:08Z")
> [@Lemur Catta](#): > > The entire history of the French Foreign Legion, as I recall it, is a series of glorious defeats. In particular, the reputation of the Legion was cemented in the [Battle of Camarón](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Camar%C3%B3n) . Great read. This Battle of Camaron doesnt seem to have been a defeat as such though, in that the objective was accomplished, ie the caravan made it to the city? Ie: “Thanks to the heroic stand of the Foreign Legion, the French supply convoy made it safely to Puebla. The Mexicans failed to relieve the siege and the city fell on May 17.” Otara [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-a-list-of-glorious-much-celebrated-military-defeats/358563.md?page=3)