# Need an LOTR tutorial **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 19, 2000, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930 "2000-08-19T01:58:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/1 "2000-08-19T01:58:25Z")
OK, I’m going to try (once again) to read the _Lord of the Rings_ trilogy, what with the movies coming out again soon. I’ve tried before; Lord knows, I’ve tried :rolleyes:. I’ve read _The Hobbit_ quite a few times; it’s a good read. But the farthest I’ve gotten into the LOTR trilogy is about two thirds of the way through _Fellowship of the Ring_. I mean, let’s face it: Tolkien can be kind of tedious :eek:. OK, here’s the deal: I need help. Can any of you dopers give me some advice to help me make it through these volumes? More specifically, I want to know: 1. Is the “Old Forest” of The Shire the same as “Mirkwood”? 2. How did Mirkwood become so evil? 3. Is the whole trilogy a metaphor for something? I’m seeing some parallels. Like, perhaps **The Enemy (The Necromancer)** is a metaphor for Hitler, **The Shire** is a metaphor for England, Frodo heading off into Mordor is a metaphor for British boys heading into WWII, and **Gandalph** is a metaphor for Winston Churchill. Or perhaps I’ve been smoking too much _pipe-weed_. 4. Finally, can someone point me to an on-line map of Middle Earth? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/2 "2000-08-19T03:12:58Z")
Something else I just thought of– As far as the movie, how are they going to have Frodo be played by Elijah Wood? Aren’t Hobbits supposed to be less than two feet tall? And who is playing Gandalf? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/3 "2000-08-19T03:15:35Z")
I’ve referred your first questions to those who can answer them for more copiously than I (and you WILL get copious answers here, trust me), but as far as the movie goes, they will be digitally shrinking the hobbits, and Ian McKellan (sp) is Gandalf. ---
**Author:** ![Akatsukami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Akatsukami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akatsukami)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/4 "2000-08-19T03:34:09Z")
**rastahomie** asks: > [@](#): > > 1. Is the “Old Forest” of The Shire the same as “Mirkwood”? No; the Old Forest just to the east of the Shire’s border, Mirkwood is waythehell beyond the Misty Mountains (Ered Mithrin, themselves a goodly way of the Shire and the Old Forest). Imladris (referred to in _The Hobbit_ as “The Last Homely House”) is in the foothills that become the Misty Mountains, so if you’ve gotten as far as Frodo’s trip there, you’ll get an idea for the distance to Mirkwood. > [@](#): > > 1. How did Mirkwood become so evil? The Necromancer (later revealed to be Sauron (I hope that’s not a spoiler for anyone)) settled at Dol Guldur on the outskirts of Mirkwood for several centuries, and his baneful influence corrupted the forest. > [@](#): > > 1. Is the whole trilogy a metaphor for something? I’m seeing some parallels. Like, perhaps **The Enemy (The Necromancer)** is a metaphor for Hitler, **The Shire** is a metaphor for England, Frodo heading off into Mordor is a metaphor for British boys heading into WWII, and **Gandalph** is a metaphor for Winston Churchill. Or perhaps I’ve been smoking too much _pipe-weed_. J.R.R.T, in his introduction (it used to be included in copies of _LotR_, although I admit to not having purchased a new copy in fifteen or twenty years), vehemently denied that _LotR_ was a metaphor or allegory for _anything_. He’s been dead for almost three decades now, and I don’t know of anyone with the necromantic power to call up his shade and cross-question it, so I guess that we’ll have to accept that statement. > [@](#): > > 1. Finally, can someone point me to an on-line map of Middle Earth? Can’t help with that one, I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/5 "2000-08-19T03:41:24Z")
I have no idea how you can consider Tolkien tedious. (I am not one of those unread innocents who believes him to be the _G_reatest _W_riter _W_ho _E_ver _L_ived, but he is a good story-teller.) Regarding your question number 3: Tolkien indignantly (and successfully) defended himself against charges of creating an allegory or of setting up any commentary on Twentieth Century politics or warfare. (The Ring is _not_ the Bomb, for example.) His story is one more retelling of the classic good vs evil tale, with some insights into the need for ordinary people to be willing to become involved in the struggle. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/6 "2000-08-19T03:49:44Z")
Middle earth maps can be found at: [Tolkien Maps](http://ring-lord.tripod.com/maps.html) Note: They are not as large as one might hope for clarity and I have not found a way to zoom on a section of them. ---
**Author:** ![Tark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@Tark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tark)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/7 "2000-08-19T04:07:10Z")
Thanks for the link to the maps. I’ve been looking for them for a while. > [@](#): > > Note: They are not as large as one might hope for clarity and I have not found a way to zoom on a section of them. Just save them to your hard drive, then use a viewer on your system to zoom in on them. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/8 "2000-08-19T08:06:23Z")
You got two-thirds of the way through _Fellowship_, and you’re still thinking that Tolkien’s tedious? I’ll grant you, he isn’t the greatest at beginnings or endings, but by that time, I usually end up staying up until 6 AM to finish the book! (Yes, I’ve read them enough times to say what “usually” happens when I read them.) Also, while the books may or may not have actually been intended as an allegory for anything, they’re perfectly capable of standing on their own, without any allegory. I mean, they’ve got the whole “good vs. evil” theme going, but then, so does just about every other piece of fiction ever written. I must say, by the way, that the notion of Gandalf representing Churchill is rather laughable. You end up learning in the _Silmarillion_ or some of the other posthumous stories that Gandalf is literally two steps below God, and even Winston isn’t that cool. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/9 "2000-08-19T12:45:04Z")
Get through that first book… you’ll have no trouble finishing the rest. I think ‘The Two Towers’ is the best of the three, with the inroduction of the Riders of Rohan, and the Ents, and more Saruman, and… well, you’ll see. Here’s a good source for you: > **[Lord of the Rings on Prime News and Info - The One Ring .net](http://www.theonering.net)** > > The latest Lord of the Rings on Amazon Prime news and info | The worlds and works of JRR Tolkien. TheOneRing.net - Online fan community since 1999 Good luck! ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/10 "2000-08-19T14:16:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > **I have no idea how you can consider Tolkien tedious. (I am not one of those unread innocents who believes him to be the _G_reatest _W_riter _W_ho _E_ver _L_ived, but he is a good story-teller.)** What can I say? I’m a Gen-Xer who was raised on _Sesame Street, Star Wars_ and MTV. The Man has caused me to have an attention span of about 10 seconds. Reading six-decades-old British literature is going to take some effort. Thanks for the help, and for the maps, fellas (and/or ladies). ---
**Author:** ![Badge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Badge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badge)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/11 "2000-08-19T20:50:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rastahomie \* > 3) Is the whole trilogy a metaphor for something? I’m seeing some parallels. Like, perhaps **The Enemy (The Necromancer)** is a metaphor for Hitler, **The Shire** is a metaphor for England, Frodo heading off into Mordor is a metaphor for British boys heading into WWII, and **Gandalph** is a metaphor for Winston Churchill. Certainly not. Tolkien once absolutly dispelled this analysis by pointing out he began writing the books in 1925, well before WWII. ---
**Author:** ![TroubleAgain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e480ec/32.png) [@TroubleAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroubleAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/12 "2000-08-19T21:44:30Z")
AAARRRGGGHHHH, read the books! No way are the movies gonna ever replace the books! However, to answer one of your questions, they are filming with a variety of tricks to make the hobbits look small. For example, there were two Bag End sets made on two different scales. One had normal sized furniture, which is where the filming of the hobbits takes place, and one has half-size furniture, and that is where they filmed Gandalf. ---
**Author:** ![lucie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed8c4c/32.png) [@lucie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucie)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2000, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/13 "2000-08-19T22:05:22Z")
For more information on the upcoming movies than you could possibly want, visit [http://www.theonering.net](http://www.theonering.net) Every aspect of the movies, books, actors, etc is dissected. Beware of spoilers though, if you have not read and memorized the books. They often assume everyon knows as much as they do. I suspect if you went to their message board and asked these questions, they’d be visiting your home with tracts. I personally love the books, but I can’t get that fanatical about anything. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/14 "2000-08-20T00:58:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rastahomie \* > 3) Is the whole trilogy a metaphor for something? I’m seeing some parallels. Like, perhaps **The Enemy (The Necromancer)** is a metaphor for Hitler, **The Shire** is a metaphor for England, Frodo heading off into Mordor is a metaphor for British boys heading into WWII, and **Gandalph** is a metaphor for Winston Churchill. Or perhaps I’ve been smoking too much _pipe-weed_.Thanks If you can, read “The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.” It may be out of print, so try a library. IIRC, in a few of his letters he says that a theme of his writings is the dangers of “The Machine,” of which the Ring is an example. But as has been said above, he denied any exact correspondences or allegory. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Teeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Dr.Teeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Teeth)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/15 "2000-08-20T02:18:59Z")
Rastahomie, it looks like I got here after you got your questions answered. But how could I stay away from a LOTR-related thread? 😃 Maybe I can give you a few tips for getting through the whole thing, since you say that you have a Gen-Xer-brand short attention span. No one really writes sweeping sagas anymore, and you have to understand that that’s what LOTR is. Sagas / epics / whatever you wanna call them (Freaking Long Books) tend to have a slower pace and expect more from the reader. The upside is, of course, that if it’s a damn good FLB, you can dive into it and not emerge for hours. And you’re in luck–LOTR is the very best of the best FLBs out there. But most of today’s society is ill-equipped for the task of getting through anything more than 200 pages or so. Go ahead, just carry around an FLB in public and you’ll invariably hear people say “You’re reading that WHOLE thing?” as though the longer you read the same book, the crazier you are. It’s never made sense to me. I think we can blame, at least partially, today’s hyper-paced movies and video games for the problem. So what to do when you have a “modern” attention span and are confronted with an FLB? Well, you have to approach it differently than, say, your basic Michael Crichton book. For one, read in big chunks. Set aside some time. Don’t try to read the thing in 15-minute segments here or there–you just won’t get into it. Tolkien has created a whole world and you need to take time to look around at it. Secondly, try to read somewhere away from distractions. Head up into the mountains or down by a lake where you won’t have incessant demands on your time. Again, this helps you get into the world and sucked into the story. I think this is one reason why so many readers and re-readers of LOTR find themselves still up at 5 a.m. when they meant to put the book down at 11:00 p.m. I can just about guarantee that if you can give yourself a weekend, and devote at least a couple of three- or four-hour chunks of time to the thing, you WON’T be stopping 2/3rds of the way through _Fellowship_. Mostly, I just wanted to tell you how jealous I am. I wish I was reading LOTR for the first time. You’ll never have that first-time-through experience again, so enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![Danalan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@Danalan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danalan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/16 "2000-08-20T02:21:06Z")
You might try getting the book on tape. I’ve had good luck listening to books I might otherwise have had difficulty with (whew, this sentence is getting long. . .), while on a road trip, or a driving commute. My wife feels the same way – finds Tolkien too detailed and tedious. I ended up reading most of the book to her, and that was better. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/17 "2000-08-20T03:40:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Mostly, I just wanted to tell you how jealous I am. I wish I was reading LOTR for the first time. You’ll never have that first-time-through experience again, so enjoy it. I’ve found that reading a _fine_ book enhances the experience. I bought LOTR from the Easton Press. The books are covered in dark green leather, with gilt edges and gilt embossing on the covers. They weren’t cheap – about 50 simoleons each for LOTR and _The Hobbit_ – but it’s such a great story that they’re worth the indulgence. I wish Easton Press would release the _Unbeliever_ first trilogy as a fine edition. I prefer Tolkein, but that’s another great bit of sword and sorcery. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2000, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/18 "2000-08-20T07:04:27Z")
Keep plugging; the story really does build and more than rewards the effort. Maybe it’ll help to keep in mind that Tolkien oriented the tale at first around linguistics. He created languages and developed a world/saga to put them in. It may appear tedious at first, but LOTR is the standard for the genre. It’s a textured, detailed creation of a world and actually very consistent throughout all aspects. It’s an antique approach but greatly refreshing compared to the endless imitators and wannabes who just slap together cloaks, swords and dubious magic. Finish it and then savor Harvard Lampoon’s ineffable parody, _Bored Of The Rings_. Veb ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2000, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/19 "2000-09-02T16:02:11Z")
**UPDATE** : I finished _Fellowship of The Ring_ a few days ago and I’m now about fifty pages into _The Two Towers_. I must admit that I skimmed a little (well, quite a bit :rolleyes: ) during the “Council of Elrond” chapter. I mean, let’s be serious. One can only take so many paragraphs of “Wenglback The Almighty did enter into a treaty with Lothloniel the Great ere the Second Age of Homdinniel son of Gragondor providing protection for the woods of Hohyynn. Ere long Lothloniel cast himself into the river Amidala, for his heart was heavy for the love of Horgungniel blah blah blah…” Now, two impressions: 1. I have a sneaking suspicion that Gandalf isn’t really dead. Everybody has _assumed_ that he’s dead, but in the introduction to _The Two Towers_ Tolkien states that Gandalf “fell into a deep pit.” Splitting hairs, perhaps, but I think Tolkien would have said something like “Gandalf _died_ when he fell into a pit” if Gandalf were truly dead. 2. Frodo is _never_ going to get rid of that damned ring! 3. Tolkien has touched upon some interesting themes. In _The Hobbit_, Tolkien talked about finding taking a journey and finding inexhaustible wealth. In _LOTR_, Tolkien talks about nothing short of saving the world. 4. The movie is going to kick ass! I can’t wait to see what they make orcs and balrogs look like! Thanks for all the advice. I’ll give another update after I finish _The Two Towers._ ---
**Author:** ![MikeG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikeg/32/4329_2.png) [@MikeG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeG)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2000, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930/20 "2000-09-02T16:20:27Z")
I envy you, I do! i just reread the entire trilogy,The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, and Unfinshed Tales. ( I’m a fast reader) I won’t spoil anything for you but a couple points: Don’t despair when Two Towers seems to get really tedious about 3/4 through.It may not seem too important but all will come into focus in RoTK. The most common thread re: an allegory is that LoTR is an extension of Tolkien’s devout Catholicism. Theonering web site discussion board will give you more info. I will also reccomend the news groups dedicated to Tolkien- look on the website for links or search under Tolkien. The saga form was definitely the framework JRR used. For another good analysis, read The Power of Myth by Moyer? I just took the kids to the Star Wars exhibit at the Field Museum and the accompanying commentary relating to the myth cycle is fascinating. As an aside, i love long books but my downfall is that i can’t read a book without finishing it! I just read Tom Clancy’s new book @ 1028 pp. and as a result, i got to see the sun rise and slept through a very nice Sat. morning! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-an-lotr-tutorial/29930.md?page=2)