# need cite for Tot v. United States (319 U.S. 463) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 4, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-cite-for-tot-v-united-states-319-u-s-463/523682 "2010-01-04T22:03:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-cite-for-tot-v-united-states-319-u-s-463/523682/1 "2010-01-04T22:03:35Z")
Wikipedia mentions this in a list of U.S. Supreme Court cases but has no dedicated article. I’m interested because this decision is cited second only to Miller as establishing the “collective” interpretation of the Second Amendment prior to Heller, and I’d like to read more about it. ---
**Author:** ![pan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e495f1/32.png) [@pan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pan1)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-cite-for-tot-v-united-states-319-u-s-463/523682/2 "2010-01-04T22:21:58Z")
[http://supreme.justia.com/us/319/463/case.html](http://supreme.justia.com/us/319/463/case.html) ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-cite-for-tot-v-united-states-319-u-s-463/523682/3 "2010-01-05T01:23:30Z")
[The original 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals decision.](http://www.guncite.com/court/fed/131f2d261.html) You can’t find it at FindLaw. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-cite-for-tot-v-united-states-319-u-s-463/523682/4 "2010-01-05T01:30:40Z")
Well now I’m confused. Unless I picked the wrong citation, the case in question didn’t say a word about any Second Amendment issue. It revolved around interstate commerce and what constituted a valid presumption of guilt. A search doesn’t even reveal the word “militia” anywhere in it. From an old thread where I got the info: > [@](#): > > The whole “collective rights” position seemed to be fabricated out of whole cloth in U.S. v. Tot (1942), wherein: > > Quote: > It is abundantly clear both from the discussions of this amendment contemporaneous with its proposal and adoption and those of learned writers since[13] that this amendment, unlike those providing for protection of free speech and freedom of religion, was not adopted with individual rights in mind, but as a protection for the States in the maintenance of their militia organizations against possible encroachments by the federal power.[14] ETA: Thanks to ExTank ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-cite-for-tot-v-united-states-319-u-s-463/523682/5 "2010-01-05T01:38:41Z")
I could say more, but we’d definitely be moving into GD territory. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-cite-for-tot-v-united-states-319-u-s-463/523682/6 "2010-01-05T02:16:32Z")
BTW, **Lumpy,** I think you quoted me, above. 🙂 At least, I do seem to recall saying words very much to that effect in a “debate” I had with…_someone_…in The Pit some years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-cite-for-tot-v-united-states-319-u-s-463/523682/7 "2010-01-05T02:34:03Z")
To be clear, U.S. v Tot was the 1942 3rd Circuit opinion, which discusses the Second Amendment. Tot v. U.S. was the 1943 Supreme Court decision, which does not. I don’t know enough to comment on the importance of the case(s), I just noticed you were treating Tot v. US & US v. Tot as interchangeable which they aren’t.