# Need Fact-Based or Solid Rational Reasons Against Ethical Vegetarianism **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 7, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416 "2012-06-07T19:03:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/21 "2012-06-07T21:32:07Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > I see “cruel” defined as “deliberately seeking to inflict pain and suffering.” Eating meat does not inflict pain and suffering (except maybe to this dude’s sensibilities). Killing an animal _could_ inflict pain and suffering, but it sure doesn’t have to, and I’d venture is generally done in an efficient manner that greatly minimizes if not eliminates the potential for that. Raising animals for meat probably induces some distress in some cases, but again it doesn’t have to and I suspect the overwhelming majority of food animals are not treated cruelly. The fact that he doesn’t like the idea of raising, slaughtering, and eating the flesh of animals doesn’t make it cruel to do so (i.e., “cruel” doesn’t mean “saddening or distasteful to me”). Obviously you don’t understand vegetarian logic. If they used the actual definition of cruelty they would eat Kosher beef. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/22 "2012-06-07T21:32:55Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > That’s a good article, and agrees with my basic opinions, but I did have a WTF moment at “by eating meat, one is implicated in the killing of a sentient being.” > > Are meat animals considered sentient beings, or is he saying that humans are killed so that I can find meat at Safeway? [Sentience](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentient) is “the ability to feel, perceive or be conscious, or to have subjective experiences.”. Sapience is the ability to think as humans do. Even quite stupid animals are probably sentient. Sentient is often used as a synonym for sapience however, which confuses the issue. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/23 "2012-06-07T21:33:41Z")
Tell him that even a vegetarian or vegan diet directly results in the deaths of animals during crop harvesting. If he goes on about limiting the suffering you can argue that you also limited the suffering by not eating more meat than you do, and that functionally both of your lives depend on causing pain to a lot of animals, whether he directly eats them or not. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/24 "2012-06-07T21:42:51Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > This was going to be my argument. Meat is the only source of all of the protiens you need. Eggs probably count. Dairy is kind of a weak source, IIRC. Technically not true. You can get complete proteins from plant sources by eating a varied diet. The only nutrient that’s completely absent from a vegan diet is [vitamin B-12](http://blog.eating-vegetarian.com/2007/01/top-nutrients-lacking-in-vegetarian.html), which vegans take supplements for, and vegetarians can get from eggs/dairy. Also, _sentient_ simply means [capable of feeling and perceiving](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sentient). In this context, _sentient_ means more “capable of experiencing pain, fear, and suffering” than “capable of memorizing multiplication tables.” There are ways to ethically source eggs, dairy, and even meat, but it requires more money, more time, and a more proactive involvement in your food than most people bother with. Other than that, I got nuthin – I don’t believe it _is_ ethical to factory farm animals. As for the ethics of meat eating in and of itself (that is, regardless of source), neither of you are going to change their minds on that point, so is it really worth arguing? If it bugs you so much, don’t hang out with him anymore. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/25 "2012-06-07T21:46:56Z")
I think the biggest logical fallacy is that he only holds humans to that standard. How many times has he made the same complaint about cats or dogs…those unrepentant killing machines. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/26 "2012-06-07T21:46:58Z")
Ethical obligations are about reciprocity. We have an obligation to act ethically towards (that is, to consider the interests of) those who do, or at least who can might be induced to, act ethically towards us, and consider our interests in choosing their actions. Animals are not capable of- are not even capable of understanding - such ethical reciprocity, or of undertaking any ethical obligations towards us. Therefore we have no fundamental ethical obligations towards them. There are probably other good reasons why it may not be wise to be wantonly cruel to animals, and even why it may, in some circumstances, be best to act as though we have ethical obligations to them. It may, for instance, be psychologically harmful to us, or to others who witness it, if we are _wantonly_ cruel to animals. However, using them for legitimate practical purposes to advance the real interests of ourselves and other humans (including but not limited to, nutrition) is perfectly ethical. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/27 "2012-06-07T21:47:28Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I don’t see a point in even discussing it with him, let alone debating it. If he believes it is immoral to eat meat, he has a right to that belief. You are free to believe the opposite. It’s not a good idea to get into debates or arguments over beliefs such as this with your friends. This right here. I **am** a vegetarian, and my reaction is that he’s being a twat. Tell him you’ll eat an extra helping of meat any time he gets all self-righteous to you about his moral superiority. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/28 "2012-06-07T21:53:11Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Obviously you don’t understand vegetarian logic. If they used the actual definition of cruelty they would eat Kosher beef. Last I checked and to the best of my understanding, kosher slaughter was definitely not kinder than most well-done conventional methods - a properly-applied captive bolt should render the animal more or less insensate, and it can be killed quickly. Kosher and/or halal slaughter requires (again IIRC) slitting the throat and letting the animal bleed to death. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/29 "2012-06-07T21:57:50Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Last I checked and to the best of my understanding, kosher slaughter was definitely not kinder than most well-done conventional methods - a properly-applied captive bolt should render the animal more or less insensate, and it can be killed quickly. Kosher and/or halal slaughter requires (again IIRC) slitting the throat and letting the animal bleed to death. I wasn’t being literal in the example. Just pointing out the lack of reasoning in the ‘cruelty’ argument. Anyway, I’ve decided to join PETA, so I’m going down to the zoo to throw red paint on leopards. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/30 "2012-06-07T22:01:21Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Anyway, I’ve decided to join PETA, so I’m going down to the zoo to throw red paint on leopards. Good plan; I hate those smug bitches. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/31 "2012-06-07T22:07:25Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Good plan; I hate those smug bitches. Not to mention the snug britches! As for the OP, the next time your “friend” makes a condescending remark, just say “Ugh” and bash him over the head with a club. ---
**Author:** ![Lightlystarched](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Lightlystarched](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightlystarched)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/32 "2012-06-07T22:17:47Z")
Go get a copy of “The Vegetarian Myth” by Liere Keith from the library. There is just as much animal death and destruction from agriculture as raising animals for food. The “dead zone” from fertilizers in the Mississippi delta. Monocrop agriculture that has replaced multi-species prairie. How does he think all that corn/soy/wheat is fertilized? What about the global nitrogen problem? And the huge amount of fossil fuels used in agriculture? Something HAS to die in order for something else to eat. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/33 "2012-06-07T22:22:49Z")
The biggest argument in favor of omnivoyeurism (heh!) is [this](http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=97836&page=1): “nobody’s hands are free from the blood of other animals, not even vegetarians.” It is \*literally impossible \*for humans in modern society to not kill animals by virtue of their diet, whatever their diet–not even vegans can escape it. “Millions of animals are killed every year to prepare land for growing crops like corn, soybean, wheat and barley, the staples of a vegan diet.” Frankly, I’m not sure why you’re even calling this guy a friend. More importantly, why would you want to go out to eat with him if he won’t live and let live on the diet bullshit already? Why bother arguing this line at all? Nobody should have to defend their diet choices, it’s not like you can force him to eat meat against his will. Why does he care? I’m lucky that my sister is a laid-back veggie who handles good-natured ribbing from career carnivores (like my dad) fairly well. Outside of that, though, it’s just not a topic that comes up. She knows she’s a vegetarian, we know she’s a vegetarian, we don’t offer her meat because we’re not assholes, and _nobody cares_. She will bring her own veggie dish to family dinners and we all eat at the same dinner table (I actually tried her tofurkey at Thanksgiving, it wasn’t bad). She can find \*something \*to eat at any restaurant. No big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Lightlystarched](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Lightlystarched](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightlystarched)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/34 "2012-06-07T22:47:07Z")
Here is a good summary of the Keith book: > **[The Vegetarian Myth – Lierre Keith – Zoë Harcombe](https://www.zoeharcombe.com/2011/08/the-vegetarian-myth-lierre-keith/)** > [@](#): > > Before long, the examples came thick and fast and became irrefutable. How many slugs are killed for a lettuce? How many millions of species in a tablespoon of top soil are trashed every second by Cargill? How many rabbits and mice are killed in cultivated fields by industrial size farming equipment? How many fish die, so that rivers can be diverted to irrigate the vegan’s grains? How many wolves and bison have been killed because we turned their homeland into farmland – for grains and plant food? Keith answers the last one: “There were somewhere between 60 and 100 million bison in the United States in 1491. Now there are 350,000 bison and only 12 to 15,000 of those are pure bison that were not cross bred with domestic cattle. The land held between 425,000 and a million wolves; only 10,000 now remain.” “The North American prairie has been reduced to 2% of its original size and the topsoil, once twelve feet deep, can now only be measured in inches.” ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/35 "2012-06-07T23:26:52Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Is he actually starting arguments? Tell him he’s rude and to mind his own business, and if he doesn’t, don’t be friends with him anymore because he’s an asshole. Are you the one starting this? Quit it. > > There. Problem solved. This… It isn’t anyone’s business what you choose to put in your mouth or what he puts in his. Food choices, like religion and politics, are not topics for polite debate between friends. The response to rude is not more rudeness. You aren’t going to convince him you are more ethical, he isn’t going to convince you to give up meat. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/36 "2012-06-07T23:45:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > [Sentience](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentient) is “the ability to feel, perceive or be conscious, or to have subjective experiences.”. Sapience is the ability to think as humans do. Even quite stupid animals are probably sentient. Sentient is often used as a synonym for sapience however, which confuses the issue. Fair enough. Now that I understand the terms better, I have no problem eating the meat from sentient beings, something I did not realize before today. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/37 "2012-06-08T00:01:47Z")
“There is just as much animal death and destruction from agriculture as raising animals for food.” Given making most meat is inherently less efficient than going straight to what they eat ie vegetables etc, no way do I buy this one. That there is _still_ substantial death I think is a plausible argument, ie the best you can do is reduce. To claim it makes _no_ difference I would need to see some awfully convincing evidence as its inherently suspect to claim its essentially identical. Wiki says this is refuted under the ethical vegetarian article, but of course that page by definition going to be a battleground. Otara ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/38 "2012-06-08T00:25:28Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Tell him that even a vegetarian or vegan diet directly results in the deaths of animals during crop harvesting. If he goes on about limiting the suffering you can argue that you also limited the suffering by not eating more meat than you do, and that functionally both of your lives depend on causing pain to a lot of animals, whether he directly eats them or not. That argument would never work on a vegetarian. (Unless they’re _really_ dumb.) It’s only convincing to omnivores engaging in motivated reasoning. Since the animals we eat are fed several calories of agricultural crops for each calorie of meat they produce, it’s obvious that if you wish to minimize the suffering and death of small animals due to growing and harvesting plants, you have an even stronger argument against eating meat. [QUOTE=I\_Know\_Nothing] I think the biggest logical fallacy is that he only holds humans to that standard. How many times has he made the same complaint about cats or dogs..those unrepentant killing machines. [/QUOTE] You seriously believe it’s legitimate to argue that humans don’t need to hold ourselves to any standard that dogs and cats don’t hold themselves to? _Really?_ [QUOTE=Lightlystarched] Go get a copy of “The Vegetarian Myth” by Liere Keith from the library. There is just as much animal death and destruction from agriculture as raising animals for food. The “dead zone” from fertilizers in the Mississippi delta. Monocrop agriculture that has replaced multi-species prairie. How does he think all that corn/soy/wheat is fertilized? What about the global nitrogen problem? And the huge amount of fossil fuels used in agriculture? Something HAS to die in order for something else to eat. [/QUOTE] Again with the motivated reasoning. No vegetarian who has spent ten minutes thinking about vegetarianism would fail to see right through this non-argument. The corn and soybeans that are being fed to our chickens and pigs cause just as many problems as the ones we eat ourselves – except it takes a whole hell of a lot more of them if they’re being processed through an animal intermediary first. Jesus. I had a BLT for dinner and yet the arguments here have me half-convinced to go vegetarian myself. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/39 "2012-06-08T00:27:58Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > Vegetarian friend is a bit, well, haughty, and seems to look down upon us meat-eating neanderthals. His reasoning for being a vegetarian includes being a 2nd generation veg. and that eating meat is cruel to animals. … > > Vegetarian friend is quite a debater, and I’d like to at least have something supporting the idea that, although it’s a perfectly understandable choice, there may be some logical holes to the concept. Are there? Can you help me out? There are plenty of animals alive today who would not be alive if it weren’t for meat-eating human beings, since they are bred or raised specifically for their meat. You might have an interesting debate with your friend over whether it’s more cruel for an animal to be killed and eaten than for it never to have been born in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416/40 "2012-06-08T00:57:12Z")
It’s hard to produce a fact-based argument against an ethical position. The best you can usually manage is to find internal inconsistencies in a person’s ethics. For example, ask him if he feels Martin Luther King Jr was an ethical person. If he says yes, point out that King was not a vegetarian. So this shows that a person can be an ethical person without being a vegetarian. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-fact-based-or-solid-rational-reasons-against-ethical-vegetarianism/624416.md?page=3)