# Need facts about a B-17 ball turret gunner who died in a belly landing. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 18, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815 "2015-06-18T02:00:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/41 "2015-06-22T15:40:11Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Even more extraordinary is the story of [Lt. Glenn H. Rojohn](http://www.historynet.com/bizarre-b-17-collision-over-the-north-sea-during-world-war-ii.htm?PageSpeed=noscript)’s B-17 accident, in which the ball turret became wedged in another B-17 which itself [wedged the top turret in the aircraft above.](https://100thbg.com/images/photogallery/0207131506020000001002964_566566846715431_1042890987_n.jpg) Most of the crew managed to bail out, though the ball turret gunner was trapped. > > “_Before they jumped, Little, Neuhaus and Elkin took the hand crank for the ball turret and tried to crank it up to free Russo. ‘It would not move,’ Elkin wrote. ‘There was no means of escape for this brave man.’_” Interestingly enough, that article references a hand-crank on the INSIDE of the turret, which lines up with my grandfather’s comments about getting the hell out when his heated suit failed. ---
**Author:** ![Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/42 "2015-06-23T13:00:20Z")
> [@Kimballkid](#): > > The ball turret on a B-17 didn’t retract. > > \ ***The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner** > Randall Jarrell, 1914 - 1965 > > From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State, > And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze. > Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life, > I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters. > When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose. > > - :eek: ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/43 "2015-06-23T15:18:25Z")
Yeah, I thought that they just washed Sherman tanks out with a hose! ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/44 "2015-06-23T16:55:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > To start with it would have been a B-24 ball turret which retracted for landing. No, it would have been a B-17, because its belly turret _didn’t_ retract, so a belly landing would crush it whether or not the gunner was inside. ---
**Author:** ![Henry\_Drummond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Henry\_Drummond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry_Drummond)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/45 "2017-05-30T22:48:53Z")
The incident Andy Rooney witnessed with the trapped ball turret gunner being crushed on landing happened at the 351st BG base at Polebrooke in 1943. Rooney never wrote about the incident until after the war. The incident is covered in Masters of the Air" by Donald Miller. My father served with the 351st but much later in the war. This is also the unit Clark Gable served with. The 351st has an excellent web site you might like to check out. > **[351BG frames](http://www.351st.org/ken.harbour/)** > > 351st Bombardment Group (Heavy), US 8th Air Force, based > at Polebrook, Northamptonshire, England, during World War II. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/46 "2017-05-30T23:55:06Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > One would think that the crew could break the plexiglass and get the guy out. My first thought is unbolting a radio-they were huge, my Father had one for his ham radio hobby-and two or three guys smashing the plexiglass with it, The balls are made from some mighty tough plexi, i dont think it breaks that easy. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2017, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/47 "2017-05-31T02:56:23Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > So was the ball-turret position the most dangerous position on the plane? While it certainly seemed that way statistics actually came to the realization that it was about the safest place in the plane. The gunner is curled up in almost a fetal position which makes a small target and he say with his back against a steel door. IIRC the most dangerous place in a B17 ended up being the waist gunners position. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2017, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/48 "2017-05-31T13:05:41Z")
Welcome to SD, **Henry**. That’s one hell of a great post, let alone for a first time at bat. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/49 "2017-05-31T15:18:25Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > One would think that the crew could break the plexiglass and get the guy out. My first thought is unbolting a radio-they were huge, my Father had one for his ham radio hobby-and two or three guys smashing the plexiglass with it, The internal access to the ball turret on a B-17 is very tight, and the interior of the turret even more so - Gunner, two M2 machineguns, ammo feeds, traverse and elevation controls, breathing gear, and more. That equipment made it HARD to get in and out - and would interfere with physical access. Add to that the physical structure of the turret itself - framing and physical structure. There was one way in, and the same one way out - short of battle damage destroying the turret (which has been captured on gun cameras). Something to note: Fatalities in the ball turret was common - Belly-landing with a dead gunner in the turret would be a reasonable solution with a battle-danages craft. (Source: Uncle was Bombardier in WWII; he didn’t talk much about battle - and anything relating to flight fatalities were hard to pry out of him, but when he would talk, the stories were hair-raisingly blunt) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/50 "2017-05-31T21:36:57Z")
My Father scooped brains out of a B-25 and tossed them out to repair radios. He swore that I would never go into the army. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/51 "2017-05-31T22:02:10Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > While it certainly seemed that way statistics actually came to the realization that it was about the safest place in the plane. The gunner is curled up in almost a fetal position which makes a small target and he say with his back against a steel door. IIRC the most dangerous place in a B17 ended up being the waist gunners position. Wow, it seems I posted the same answer twice in this thread. One yesterday and one two years ago. Hmm ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2017, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/52 "2017-05-31T22:23:28Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > Wow, it seems I posted the same answer twice in this thread. One yesterday and one two years ago. Hmm I can see the waist gunners being dangerous; shooting at the engines from the side. I would think that the cockpit would be a primary target. Maybe the .50s turret in the nose curtail cockpit attacks. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2017, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/53 "2017-06-01T00:26:21Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I can see the waist gunners being dangerous; shooting at the engines from the side. I would think that the cockpit would be a primary target. Maybe the .50s turret in the nose curtail cockpit attacks. IIRC the highest fatality rate was waist gunners followed closely by pilots. The bottom line really is if you were in a B17/24 over Germany you were on borrowed time. I flew in a P51 a few years ago that a good friend of mine owned (Old Boy) and we escorted Aluminum Overcast from Atlanta to Warner Robins. During the flight we made a few gun runs on her and I can tell you that attacking a large bomber in a fighter would have been terrifying. You can clearly see the .50s on the ship and the really no way to attack that you aren’t going to have a lot of lead thrown at you. (And yes, it was AWESOME! Thanks to my friend Steve I was able to experience something that I thought I’d only be able to read about. ) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/54 "2017-06-01T01:48:03Z")
Were the escorts better than the machine guns of the flying fortress in keeping German fighters away? I’ve read that the long escort P-51s made the difference in protecting bombers. Nonetheless, USAC losses were greater than the marines. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2017, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/55 "2017-06-01T02:43:37Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I can see the waist gunners being dangerous; shooting at the engines from the side. I would think that the cockpit would be a primary target. Maybe the .50s turret in the nose curtail cockpit attacks. IIRC the highest fatality rate was waist gunners followed closely by pilots. The bottom line really is if you were in a B17/24 over Germany you were on borrowed time. I flew in a P51 a few years ago that a good friend of mine owned (Old Boy) and we escorted Aluminum Overcast from Atlanta to Warner Robins. During the flight we made a few gun runs on her and I can tell you that attacking a large bomber in a fighter would have been terrifying. You can clearly see the .50s on the ship and the really no way to attack that you aren’t going to have a lot of lead thrown at you. (And yes, it was AWESOME! Thanks to my friend Steve I was able to experience something that I thought I’d only be able to read about. ) ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2017, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815/56 "2017-06-01T05:54:40Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > I flew in a P51 a few years ago that a good friend of mine owned (Old Boy) and we escorted Aluminum Overcast from Atlanta to Warner Robins. During the flight we made a few gun runs on her and I can tell you that attacking a large bomber in a fighter would have been terrifying. You can clearly see the .50s on the ship and the really no way to attack that you aren’t going to have a lot of lead thrown at you. (And yes, it was AWESOME! Thanks to my friend Steve I was able to experience something that I thought I’d only be able to read about. ) That reminds me of this quote from Hans Philipp ‘Against 20 Russians trying to shoot you down, or even 20 Spitfires, it can be exciting; even fun. But curve in towards 40 Fortresses and all your past sins flash before your eyes.’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-facts-about-a-b-17-ball-turret-gunner-who-died-in-a-belly-landing/722815.md?page=2)