# Need for a Strong Dictator in Certain Countries **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2003, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712 "2003-04-14T19:43:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![don\_willard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@don\_willard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_willard)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/1 "2003-04-14T19:43:29Z")
Somebody in an argument a grouping of us were having about the war said they never should have unseated Saddam Hussein because look at the rioting! Because of tribal, religious, and other ethnic differences and because so many different people live in the city areas of these certain countries, they would all riot and loot the minute you took out their brutal dictators. They don’t let them riot by being severe and locking up even mere suspects. So his argument went. He also said American ways are impossible where there is too much religion. signed Wondering About All This ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/2 "2003-04-14T19:55:26Z")
Not so GQ. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/3 "2003-04-14T20:29:22Z")
Too bad Marshall Tito is dead. He’d make a great moderator to keep things on track here in GQ. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/4 "2003-04-14T21:00:34Z")
Looting and rioting are not unheard of in modern, democratic Western countries. Does that mean we need strong dictators to keep order in the U.S. and Canada? ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/5 "2003-04-14T21:12:06Z")
“Not ready for democracy” is shallow and patronizing. It’s akin to saying slavery is ok in some countries because the slaves aren’t ready for freedom. ---
**Author:** ![don\_willard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@don\_willard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_willard)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/6 "2003-04-14T22:09:32Z")
I’ll tell him that in no uncertain terms. I didn’t know that the rioting in some democratic countries was as bad as we see now in Iraq and in many other places. ---
**Author:** ![DreadCthulhu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DreadCthulhu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DreadCthulhu)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/7 "2003-04-14T23:09:08Z")
The LA riots were pretty nasty; the looting and such reminds me alot of the stuff in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![BaldTaco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/47e85d/32.png) [@BaldTaco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BaldTaco)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/8 "2003-04-15T02:30:58Z")
That argument is ridiculous, and your friend should be laughed at. It’s like killing your kids to keep them from doing drugs, or not eating food because you’re afraid of getting fat. Yes, politics in Iraq is complicated, but to say that the people need a dictator to keep them in line is it going a little far. There is a connection though. Societies that have existed in anarchy for a time are more prone to dictators, and vice versa. The argument can also be made that there is really no civil society in a country like Iraq, something key in the operation of a successful democracy. While that may be the case right now, the population of Iraq is educated enough that I think one will develop fairly quickly. That being said, there are many countries where democracy right now would be inconceivable, even given an ideal political situation. That’s not to say that those peoples don’t deserve one, or that they’re incapable of having one, but just that they aren’t ready yet. I see the success of democracy as very intimately tied to the education levels in a country. Democracy is an abstract concept that really requires an appreciation for conflicting ideas and an ability to understand “the other.” ---
**Author:** ![Swagman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Swagman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swagman)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/9 "2003-04-15T03:04:06Z")
Interesting thread. I agree that some countries are not suitable for a western style democracy - you can’t impose western standards on a people who have a non western culture. As an example I was lucky enough to talk to a diplomat who’s spent 6 years in Pakistan. I asked him about democracy there and he said it would never work, a ‘benevolent dictator’ is what the people want in an ideal world, they’re simply not interested in a democracy having tried it and found it lacking. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/10 "2003-04-15T03:10:42Z")
Complaining about a few days of rioting after thirty-plus years of dicatorship is a sure sign that someone has been watching too much television and become accustomed to neat mysteries with one-hour resolutions. In other words, tell your friend to relax. Stable governments take months or years to form, not days. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/11 "2003-04-15T11:14:34Z")
Off to Great Debates. bibliophage moderator GQ ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/12 "2003-04-15T11:45:23Z")
You know, the countries that first began using democracy inn a modern context didn’t have what we’d call “Western Culture.” In the end, its not about women’s lib, racial equality, social justice, or some other issue that we have to worry about now. Everyone wants to have a say in how their homeland is run and where its going. Japan is a classic example. Had their first constitution been more robust, they arguably never would have been taken over by militarists, and hence no WWII involvement. The 1920 were a great era of strong democracy in Japan, with scenes that easily could have been taken out an American politial playbook of the late 19th century. Did they have a “Western Culture”? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/13 "2003-04-15T14:14:16Z")
And, of course, Athens, revered as cradle of direct democracy and participatory citizenship(\*), also gave birth to Plato’s _Republic_ with its idealized Benevolent Dictatorship of Philosopher-Kings and state myths. (\*as long as you were a freeborn male householder from a native-Athenian family) As to the descent into chaos of some nations upon removal of dictatorships or strong governments – when you really have not had Rule of Law established as the operating system of a civil society, but rather a long-time Rule of Terror or of Strength, yes, people become conditioned to the alternative being Strongman vs. Anarchy. But that can be worked with. One thing though, here, is the possible misunderstandings about what we (and the other nations) are looking for in a “democratic” model of governeance. A lot of what the man-on-the-street refers to as “the democratic system” is really Applied Human-Civil Rights and Rule of Law, open to citizen participation in the processes(\*\*). Which can happen under socialdemocracy or neoliberal capitalism, in a presidential republic or a parliamentary monarchy, in a unitary or federative state, in a small homogeneous ethno-national state or a large pluralistic one, through electors and congresses or through tribal assemblies – _it is NOT “one size fits all”_. So if a nation somehow looks “unready for democracy” it may mean there is some social, economic, cultural or external circumstance that prevents this application – _or that the specific application attempted is the wrong one for their case._ (\*\*which IMO could be more properly called a “constitutional-liberal[sub](in the old sense of the word)[/sub] system” than “western democracy”) In a lot of cases, alas, there is one of two mirror-image situations that arise: One, where people expect “democracy” to be the Silver Bullet that wipes away prejudice, social injustice, poverty and lack of civil peace automagically, and where the decisions made by the “popular”(in the sense of elected-by-the-people) rulers are only legitimate if followed by “popular” (as in well-liked) results. The other, where people define “democracy” strictly as the structure of elective representative government being in place and _never mind_ about addressing the poverty, injustice, prejudice or lack of civil peace, and decisions made by the “popular” rulers are by definition the “right” decision and never mind if they’re popular in the other sense (or even dead wrong objectively). Both cases lead to disillusionment with the idea of “democracy”, alas. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/14 "2003-04-15T14:28:06Z")
\<-- putting on my whiny Andy Rooney voice. “Dja’ever notice that the people who advocate dictatorship in other countires never want one in their OWN country? It’s always one of those OTHER countries- you know, the kind with lots of not so white people- that needs someone to brutalize them and keep them in line.” ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/15 "2003-04-15T14:36:34Z")
The main difference I see is that in western style democratic systems the authority/respect is derived from the institutions not the people within them. A tyrant rules by force of will and authority is sourced and flows from the tyrant. In the western case it flows from the institutions. The military respond to the President as CnC not as G. Bush. The electorate obey laws not because of John Ashcroft but because the laws are approved by Congress. Making the mental switch from personal to institutional derived authority seems difficult and long term. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/16 "2003-04-15T15:00:53Z")
I predict this thread goes at least 35 pages. **don willard** has spoken. Seriously, this is another good topic. It’s a little like the “less filling, tastes great” or “nurture versus nature” debates, eternal questions with no clear answers. Back during Gulf War I the debate centered on how balkanized Iraq was, that the divisions in Iraq were too severe to make a democracy work. Better to let the Iraqis live under Adolph Saddam Stalin than risk _instability._\* At the time it made sense to me. I’m more in the Andy Rooney camp now. If Iraq falls apart, I’m not convinced that is an argument for someone like Saddam taking power. There are too many other variables. The problem could be as simple as too much of a good thing, in this case religion. \*In diplomatic circles: the end of all goodness. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/17 "2003-04-15T15:33:59Z")
I should have added… It’s not that very religious people cannot live the American way, IMO. We are very religious people on the whole. BUT, we limit religion in public institutions. We have contentious disputes over that issue in the United States. :dubious: Therefore I’m sure things will go much more smoothly in Iraq where the religious disputes are much less virulent. And, of course, there is a long tradition of secular government in the Islamic world. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/18 "2003-04-15T19:40:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bill H. \* > \*\*“Not ready for democracy” is shallow and patronizing. > > It’s akin to saying slavery is ok in some countries because the slaves aren’t ready for freedom. \*\* I don’t believe that. Thats the same logic that says pointing out the fact that black people, per capita, commit more crimes than white people is racist. No its not, its just pointing out unpopular facts. Read Fareed Zakaria’s blurb in newsweek. > **[MSNBC News - Breaking News and News Today | Latest News](https://www.msnbc.com/)** > > MSNBC breaking news and the latest news for today. Get daily news from local news reporters and world news updates with live audio & video from our team. ---
**Author:** ![mrblue92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/19 "2003-04-15T20:56:52Z")
> [@](#): > > All are against all, he claims, and says even people who are a small group fall into at leasst two parts that hate eachother… Sounds like a happy fellow. I wonder what happens if you were to end up on a deserted island with him. Have him check out Keeley’s _War Before Civilization_. Rousseau is certainly too optimistic, but that doesn’t mean Hobbes had humanity pegged. ---
**Author:** ![BaldTaco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/47e85d/32.png) [@BaldTaco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BaldTaco)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712/20 "2003-04-15T22:37:41Z")
> [@](#): > > even people who are a small group fall into at leasst two parts that hate eachother, That’s tribalism. “Us and them,” xenophobia, or whatever you want to call it. Tribalism is a fundamental aspect of human behaviour. It’s the source of most of the conflict in the world today and throughout history, and the basis for racism. Competition is a fact of life on earth, and is what makes evolution possible. Many animals have evolved to cooperate rather than compete with each other, but that cooperation is always limited. Before the rise of agrarianism, our ancestors spent millenia in groups of about 30 people, competing with neighbouring tribes for resources. We’ve been living in cities for ~7000 years, and only recently have we begun to think outside this paradigm. Overcoming this inbred fear of “the other” will take many more centuries, and I doubt if it will ever be complete. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-for-a-strong-dictator-in-certain-countries/168712.md?page=2)