# Need help from Dope chemists, poisoners **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 28, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318 "2010-07-28T15:49:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/21 "2010-07-28T20:16:11Z")
Fluoroacetate is very toxic - LD50 below 10 mg / kg. One of a relatively small number of fluorine-containing natural products, it gets taken into the citric acid cycle analogously to acetate and bolloxes it up good. It can be isolated from a range of different plants, apparently. Also used as rat poison in the old days. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/22 "2010-07-28T21:09:36Z")
How about if she takes a toxin from a known poisonous animal, like a box jellyfish or a blue-ringed octopus? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/23 "2010-07-28T21:09:44Z")
You know, if the guy is taking 1 gram capsules, several times a day, you could do him in easily by replacing the contents of his capsules with potassium chloride. KCl is available at garden stores. [Hyperkalemia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperkalemia) ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/24 "2010-07-28T21:15:20Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > You know, if the guy is taking 1 gram capsules, several times a day, you could do him in easily by replacing the contents of his capsules with potassium chloride. KCl is available at garden stores. > [Hyperkalemia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperkalemia) He would have to take a good bit of it, I’ve seen therapeutic doses of 1500 mg twice a day regularly. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/25 "2010-07-28T21:35:51Z")
too bad it has to be in a capsule. much easier if it were in a soup… “oh goodness, i thought those were onions!” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/26 "2010-07-28T22:00:56Z")
It also doesn’t need to be something that’s sure to kill. LD50 means a dosage that’s deadly 50% of the time, but maybe she gave him a smaller dosage, that’s only lethal 5% of the time, and he was just one of the unlucky ones. This would work especially well if you want to emphasize her lack of technical knowledge of poisons: If all she knows is that a particular substance is poisonous, she might not get the dosages right. ---
**Author:** ![JoeH2O](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@JoeH2O](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoeH2O)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/27 "2010-07-28T22:56:56Z")
Copper Sulphate is pretty toxic, and easy to get hold of - you could gather a fatal amount from a few children’s chemistry sets available in a store. Getting it into the guy though, might be tough since it is bright blue. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/28 "2010-07-29T00:16:18Z")
If you’re swapping out his medicine, and it’s medicine that he desperately, immediately needs, swapping it with baking soda or sugar would work as well as anything. And it wouldn’t leave any trace of poison. Now you just have to find a medicine that a person would be that dependent on. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/29 "2010-07-29T07:38:03Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > > [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > > > How about [foxglove](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxglove#Toxicity)? The stuff is certainly potent enough, and I think you’d be OK with simply drying and crushing the most potent parts of the plant and putting them into the capsules… > > Whoa: > > > [@](#): > > > > Drying does not reduce the toxicity of the plant. > > That’s awsome! Now I need find out how much he would have to consume for it to be fatal. Well, snooping around somewhat, the main poisonous ingredients of the plant are digoxin and digitoxin, both of which seem to have a LD50 in the tens of mg/kg. [This article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitalis_purpurea) on the purple foxglove claims that the pollen of the plant contain up to 80% digitalis, so it seems all you’d have to do is harvest enough and put them into the capsules. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/30 "2010-07-29T13:23:09Z")
Ricin has been mentioned already and the seeds of the [suicide tree](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerbera_odollam) are another option. She would just have to have a friend in India ship her some or order it online. Depending on the people she has contact with, a couple of capsules of uncut heroin would probably be fatal. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/31 "2010-07-29T13:47:49Z")
[This](http://iocaine.com/) is supposed to be odorless, tasteless, and one of the more deadlier poisons known to man. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/32 "2010-07-29T14:57:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Would any commercially-available rat poisons be deadly to humans in the appropriate dose? > > Alternately, the fact that the husband is taking pills regularly implies that he has some existing health condition, that might make him more vulnerable to some substances (even to some substances that wouldn’t be dangerous to a healthy individual). Would something like that work? Yes on the first, and on the second, depending on the husband’s condition, make it be capsules and the wife substitute their content with flour. He doesn’t die from being poisoned by the flour, but from not taking his medicine. Much easier, and much less likely to be detected. And tell the chemist to stop metagaming, she’s supposed to use the knowledge her character has and not her own! ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/33 "2010-07-29T15:14:22Z")
Ground Hemlock seeds may work. Ricin is a poor choice for an oral poison, since the protien can be digested. Cyanide is, of course, ideal. Any gold/silver plating shop is likely to be swimming in potassium cyanide. If the murderer worked in a plating shop, it would be easy to access. OTOH, elementary police investigators looking into a cyanide poisoning would immediately look for any association with the plating industry. I had a boss that was questioned in regards to the Tylanol case. He was questioned for no other reason than that the company sold cyanide solutions. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/34 "2010-07-29T20:03:06Z")
> [@JoeH2O](#): > > Copper Sulphate is pretty toxic, and easy to get hold of - you could gather a fatal amount from a few children’s chemistry sets available in a store. > > Getting it into the guy though, might be tough since it is bright blue. Well she’s putting it in his prescription capsules, so the color shouldn’t be a problem, but I like this. [QUOTE=Yllria] If you’re swapping out his medicine, and it’s medicine that he desperately, immediately needs, swapping it with baking soda or sugar would work as well as anything. And it wouldn’t leave any trace of poison. Now you just have to find a medicine that a person would be that dependent on. [/QUOTE] I like this too. [QUOTE=Nava] And tell the chemist to stop metagaming, she’s supposed to use the knowledge her character has and not her own! [/QUOTE] Heh. It’s mostly a matter of pride, but it does help the game flow. I wouldn’t want a GM basing a game on a totally hokey computer event. [QUOTE=WarmNPrickly] Ground Hemlock seeds may work. Ricin is a poor choice for an oral poison, since the protien can be digested. Cyanide is, of course, ideal. Any gold/silver plating shop is likely to be swimming in potassium cyanide. If the murderer worked in a plating shop, it would be easy to access. OTOH, elementary police investigators looking into a cyanide poisoning would immediately look for any association with the plating industry. [/QUOTE] So is potassium cyanide something you could buy off the shelf somewhere? Is electroplating jewelry something people can do at home? If they did, how would they get it? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/35 "2010-07-29T20:45:16Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > If you’re swapping out his medicine, and it’s medicine that he desperately, immediately needs, swapping it with baking soda or sugar would work as well as anything. And it wouldn’t leave any trace of poison. > > Now you just have to find a medicine that a person would be that dependent on. A medicine for high blood pressure might fit the bill. They have warnings about how going off the medication suddenly can cause your blood pressure to spike up. > [@JoeH20](#): > > Copper Sulphate is pretty toxic, and easy to get hold of - you could gather a fatal amount from a few children’s chemistry sets available in a store. Easier than that. I have two big bottles of it in my basement. You flush it down the toilet to kill tree roots in your sewer line. IIRC, we bought it at Home Depot or Lowe’s. That reminds me- I should flush some down our toilet tomorrow, to keep the tree roots from building up too much in the sewer line. ---
**Author:** ![mikews99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@mikews99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikews99)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/36 "2010-07-29T20:51:33Z")
If you want something easy to procure, easy to extract poison out of, and doesn’t require any special knowledge to use, seeds of the [Rosary Pea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosary_pea) produce [abrin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrin), of which only 3 micrograms (3 millionths of a gram) can kill a full grown adult. ---
**Author:** ![NOLA\_Cajun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea666f/32.png) [@NOLA\_Cajun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NOLA_Cajun)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/37 "2010-07-29T21:00:46Z")
How much succinylcholine does it take? If the dosage is maybe 2 capsules is that enough? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/38 "2010-07-29T21:07:14Z")
Another possibility, if he’s taking two or more medications (call them A and B), is to replace B with a medication that can interact lethally with A. Even an OTC medication could work for this. Or, if he’s taking certain medications, she could give him grapefruit juice- it can interact lethally with some medicines. Herbal supplements might be another possibility to interact with medications. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/39 "2010-07-29T22:56:51Z")
You know, now I’m getting curious. Would running tobacco chaw water through coffee filters ungunk it enough to let someone evaporate it into a nicotine-rich powder? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318/40 "2010-07-30T00:55:23Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > Easier than that. I have two big bottles of it in my basement. You flush it down the toilet to kill tree roots in your sewer line. IIRC, we bought it at Home Depot or Lowe’s. Hmm, I don’t know if copper sulfate would work. [This](http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/carbaryl-dicrotophos/copper-sulfate-ext.html) page says > [@](#): > > Ingestion of copper sulfate is often not toxic because vomiting is automatically triggered by its irritating effect on the gastrointestinal tract. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-dope-chemists-poisoners/548318.md?page=3)