# Need help from the bible scholars **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 2, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730 "2015-09-02T19:23:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/41 "2015-09-02T21:50:30Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > Putting it in some kind of Iron Age context and saying it wasn’t generally approved is just handwaving away that rape and babykilling are in fact condoned in the OT. Just like babykilling is condoned in America. Any discussion of nuance and context is “handwaving”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/42 "2015-09-02T21:51:56Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > where has this allegation been made? In the OP. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/43 "2015-09-02T21:53:47Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Huh? Whether it is “okay” certainly implies that it is acceptable generally (a/k/a “all the time”). > > In the NT, God allegedly deliberately sent his own son - Jesus Christ - for human sacrifice on the cross: it is part of Christian theology that God knew this would happen, and chose not to prevent it (even though he easily could). Since “in this one case” God approved of it, does that mean allowing the sacrifice of one’s son to oneself via torture without lifting a finger to stop it is “okay” according to the NT? 😕 God did allow executions so not inconsistent (not to mention the sentence being overturned and reversed) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/44 "2015-09-02T22:06:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In the OP. but it is ok just not for jews so, generally, since it is a Jewish book, it is “not ok” but in many other cases it is fine so, yes, rape and killing babies are ok in the OT ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/45 "2015-09-02T22:07:27Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t agree. Just because God is depicted killing people, doesn’t mean that killing people is “okay” generally. God killing people with plagues and the like isn’t a ‘Biblical approval’ for biological warfare. If God is all-powerful, then God kills everybody. Human beings are mortal. If God created us, then he created us to be mortal, and therefore intends for every one of us to die. God is the biggest serial killer in the space-time continuum. But just because it’s OK for God to kill whoever he wants (and he wants to kill everyone), that doesn’t mean it’s OK for humans to kill whoever they want. It has to be OK with God first. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/46 "2015-09-02T22:12:04Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If God is all-powerful, then God kills everybody. Enoch, the first person ‘raptured’ and some others never died … [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/47 "2015-09-02T22:13:14Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > but it is ok > just not for jews > so, generally, since it is a Jewish book, it is “not ok” > but in many other cases it is fine > so, yes, rape and killing babies are ok in the OT Seems you have a bit of a bee in your bonnet about Jews. If you want to discuss what _Jews_ think about rape and baby-killing, it may be worth mentioning that modern-day Jews don’t, as a rule, follow the laws as set out in the OT, but rather as those laws are explained and interpreted in the Talmud. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/48 "2015-09-02T22:18:43Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Though, based on archaeological evidence, the current belief is that babies weren’t burned. Rather, there may have been a ritual where babies were quickly (and painlessly) passed through a flame real quick, as a sort of spiritual cleansing, like baptism. Is there a cite for this? I’d be earnestly interested if there is. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/49 "2015-09-02T22:19:35Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yup, a specific instance of rape was acceptable - that is, rape of women taken as captives in war. Note that this was hardly unusual for the late Iron Age - in fact, the OT gave such captives more rights then they generally enjoyed in other contemporary societies (the rapist was specifically prohibited from selling her after he was tired of her, but had to free her - not something that, say, a Roman would be required to do). > > Just like a specific instance of baby-killing was acceptable - killing of babies from among the “accursed” tribes, like the Amalakites, who were supposed to be killed to the last person. Again, other contemporaries were not so limited. > > But it is wholly inaccurate to allege, _as a generality_, that rape and baby-killing were “okay”. As the sections quoted upthread demonstrated, they were not. I think it’s rather obvious that the OP was asking not whether killing babies or rape was OK as a generality, but whether it was considered to be permitted in any circumstances. I think the answer to that is rather clearly “yes,” as you admit in the examples given. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/50 "2015-09-02T22:23:54Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I think it’s rather obvious that the OP was asking not whether killing babies or rape was OK as a generality, but whether it was considered to be permitted in any circumstances. I think the answer to that is rather clearly “yes,” as you admit in the examples given. I think it is not obvious at all. If that is the question, than “baby-killing” is definitely “okay” in _modern_ society, and “rape” was “okay” untill fairly recently. Your “obvious” interpretation makes the question pretty meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/51 "2015-09-02T22:24:20Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I think it’s rather obvious that the OP was asking not whether killing babies or rape was OK as a generality, but whether it was considered to be permitted in any circumstances. FWIW, that’s not obvious to me. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/52 "2015-09-02T22:24:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In the OP. The OP does not contend that rape and baby-killing were permitted as a generality. You are reading that into it. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/53 "2015-09-02T22:25:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Seems you have a bit of a bee in your bonnet about Jews. > > If you want to discuss what _Jews_ think about rape and baby-killing, it may be worth mentioning that modern-day Jews don’t, as a rule, follow the laws as set out in the OT, but rather as those laws are explained and interpreted in the Talmud. lol, modern day jews the topic is not modern day jews ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/54 "2015-09-02T22:25:56Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The OP does not contend that rape and baby-killing were permitted as a generality. You are reading that into it. Disagree. You are reading _restrictions_ into it that are not there. If someone bet me that “I bet that “killing babies is OK, and raping women is OK as well” according to the old testament.”, they had better be able to prove it was “okay” if they want to collect. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/55 "2015-09-02T22:29:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I think it is not obvious at all. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > FWIW, that’s not obvious to me. Anyone who knew anything at all about the Bible would know that it’s not OK in general. The OP’s reference to “a verse” indicates that he’s looking for specific instances, not generalities. At any rate, I think two things have been established so far: 1. Rape and baby-killing are not generally OK. 2. There are specific cases, already cited and admitted, in which they are permitted. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/56 "2015-09-02T22:30:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Disagree. You are reading _restrictions_ into it that are not there. > > If someone bet me that “I bet that “killing babies is OK, and raping women is OK as well” according to the old testament.”, they had better be able to prove it was “okay” if they want to collect. you are engaging in semantics and evasion in an attempt to distance yourself from an unpleasant truth ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/57 "2015-09-02T22:30:45Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Anyone who knew anything at all about the Bible would know that it’s not OK in general. The OP’s reference to “a verse” indicates that he’s looking for specific instances, not generalities. > > At any rate, I think two things have been established so far: > > 1. Rape and baby-killing are not generally OK. > > 2. There are specific cases, already cited and admitted, in which they are permitted. Yeah, that’s the consensus all right. The issue is whether that will win the OP his bet or not. I’m guessing “not”. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/58 "2015-09-02T22:31:03Z")
The simple answer is found in Commandment 6, 7 and 10. Thou shalt not kill Thou shalt not commit adultery Thou shalt not covet (- thy neighbor’s wife’s ass -) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/59 "2015-09-02T22:33:46Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > you are engaging in semantics and evasion in an attempt to distance yourself from an unpleasant truth Uh, that would be a “no”. :rolleyes: Here’s a clue: I don’t give a shit for defending the Bible as a source of religious wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/60 "2015-09-02T22:35:34Z")
I would like to point out that the laws of many nations today are perfectly fine with baby killing. It isn’t typically called that, mind–it’s called “a medical procedure” or “a woman’s right to chose.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730.md?page=4)