# Need help from the bible scholars **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 2, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730 "2015-09-02T19:23:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/61 "2015-09-02T22:37:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Uh, that would be a “no”. :rolleyes: > > Here’s a clue: I don’t give a shit for defending the Bible as a source of religious wisdom. well, I agree, it’s a very good book if you are looking for wisdom ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/62 "2015-09-02T22:38:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > you are engaging in semantics and evasion in an attempt to distance yourself from an unpleasant truth > [@Malthus](#): > > Uh, that would be a “no”. :rolleyes: > > Here’s a clue: I don’t give a shit for defending the Bible as a source of religious wisdom. **Moderator Note** Let’s drop the personal remarks and rolleyes. No warnings issued, but keep it civil. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/63 "2015-09-02T22:41:29Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I would like to point out that the laws of many nations today are perfectly fine with baby killing. > > It isn’t typically called that, mind–it’s called “a medical procedure” or “a woman’s right to chose.” **Moderator Note** To keep this in GQ, let’s not go down that particular path and restrict the discussion to infanticide (killing a baby that has been born naturally). Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/64 "2015-09-02T22:42:57Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The simple answer is found in Commandment 6, 7 and 10. > > Thou shalt not kill > Thou shalt not commit adultery > Thou shalt not covet (- thy neighbor’s wife’s ass -) As we have seen, those don’t actually answer the question at all, since they don’t preclude the exceptions that have been cited. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/65 "2015-09-02T23:02:27Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As we have seen, those don’t actually answer the question at all, since they don’t preclude the exceptions that have been cited. Those rules were burned in stone by God. Perhaps there’s a reason they were burned in stone instead of God relying on his Earthy servant’s interpretations of his word. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/66 "2015-09-02T23:57:05Z")
I, for one, would like to know the stakes of this bet. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/67 "2015-09-03T00:56:42Z")
Malthus, I think you raise a good point. I agree with Colibri, I read the OP as asking something along the lines of “are there any places/verses in the OT in which rape and baby killing are condoned.” I still maintain that the answer to this is clearly yes. However, his exact question is a little ambiguous, so it would be helpful if the OP clarified. If he meant “condoned at all times,” then the answer is just as clearly no. I don’t think he’s been back to this thread though. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/68 "2015-09-03T01:08:22Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Those rules were burned in stone by God. Perhaps there’s a reason they were burned in stone instead of God relying on his Earthy servant’s interpretations of his word. **Moderating** This being GQ, unless you can produce some archaeological evidence supporting this statement, it has no bearing on the discussion. If you want to witness about your religious beliefs, take it to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/69 "2015-09-03T01:12:14Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > Malthus, I think you raise a good point. I agree with Colibri, I read the OP as asking something along the lines of “are there any places/verses in the OT in which rape and baby killing are condoned.” I still maintain that the answer to this is clearly yes. However, his exact question is a little ambiguous, so it would be helpful if the OP clarified. If he meant “condoned at all times,” then the answer is just as clearly no… As I said, anybody with any knowledge of the Bible at all wouldn’t think that it condoned rape and baby killing in general, and no one would reasonably make a bet to that effect. I think the OP simply worded his post poorly. Whether he wins his bet or not depends on whether he worded it just as poorly. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/70 "2015-09-03T01:48:53Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As I said, anybody with any knowledge of the Bible at all wouldn’t think that it condoned rape and baby killing in general, and no one would reasonably make a bet to that effect. I think the OP simply worded his post poorly. Whether he wins his bet or not depends on whether he worded it just as poorly. Yes, but what we don’t know is whether the OP is a reasonable person with any knowledge of the Bible. Keep in mind you and I are in agreement here. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/71 "2015-09-03T04:42:01Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Technically, the translation is “Thou shall not murder.” … Technically, the translation is “no murder.” ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/72 "2015-09-03T05:59:07Z")
There’s Exodus 22:23 > [@](#): > > **King James Bible** > If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. This is often cited as the reason Jewish religion does not condemn abortion. The wording is ambiguous, in the original language not specifying clearly whether the passage means the child is born alive and survived, or miscarried. But the implication is that the death of a baby is a property crime, punishable by fine - as opposed to murder, punishable by death or the famous “eye for an eye…” quote. Don’t forget, too, the wisest of Israeli Kings, Solomon, offered to cut a baby in half to solve a lawsuit - although that may have been a bluff. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/73 "2015-09-03T06:13:42Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Technically, the translation is “no murder.” Technically, “לֹ֥֖א תִּֿרְצָֽ֖ח” is “do not murder”. “תִּֿרְצָֽ֖ח” is a verb. If it was a noun, it would be “רֶצַח”. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/74 "2015-09-03T06:34:48Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > There’s Exodus 22:23 > This is often cited as the reason Jewish religion does not condemn abortion. The wording is ambiguous, in the original language not specifying clearly whether the passage means the child is born alive and survived, or miscarried. But the implication is that the death of a baby is a property crime, punishable by fine - as opposed to murder, punishable by death or the famous “eye for an eye…” quote. > > Don’t forget, too, the wisest of Israeli Kings, Solomon, offered to cut a baby in half to solve a lawsuit - although that may have been a bluff. I suppose I should clarify - causing “…the death of a baby/fetus before it is born (or perhaps during childbirth)…” is a property crime. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/75 "2015-09-03T14:03:48Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Don’t forget, too, the wisest of Israeli Kings, Solomon, offered to cut a baby in half to solve a lawsuit - although that may have been a bluff. Well, definitely bluff. But not a hollow one, or else the fake ma would have protested as well rather than being ready to go along with it. Which begs the question: at what point after being born does a kid change from damageable property to murderable person? (looks at his own children) Um…need answer fast. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/76 "2015-09-03T14:44:34Z")
Speaking of Biblical kings - one of the things I find interesting about the OT accounts is that they are typically not portrayed as stainless heroes. Even the best of them are depicted, deliberately, as monsters of vanity, greed and violence. Indeed, the whole notion of kingship is held questionable (no doubt because the book was redacted by priests!). Samuel is scathing on this score, when the Israelites ask him to install a king: > [@](#): > > 10 Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[c] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.” > > 19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.” ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/77 "2015-09-03T15:57:58Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > **Moderating** > > This being GQ, unless you can produce some archaeological evidence supporting this statement, it has no bearing on the discussion. If you want to witness about your religious beliefs, take it to Great Debates. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator This being GQ, it is surely acceptable to consider references made in context as to which of the laws were _said_ to have been burned into stone by God versus written down by men, without anyone having to step up and say “Nuh-uh, you can’t say ‘God’ did anything unless you can show me your ‘God’ on a microscope slide”. Technically I suppose this should be in ATMB but ain’t no-one got time for that. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/78 "2015-09-03T16:05:35Z")
Will this verse do for you? > [@Psalm 137](#): > > By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion. > > 2 We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. > > 3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion. > > 4 How shall we sing the Lord’s song in a strange land? > > 5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. > > 6 If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy. > > 7 Remember, O Lord, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof. > > 8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. > > **9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.** Admittedly that’s from the enslaved Jews who were a tad pissed off at the Babylonians, not from God directly. ETA; Just realized this was what \*\*Chronos \*\*was referring to in post #2. Ah well. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/79 "2015-09-03T16:40:21Z")
Why do so many people insist on quoting the KJV in this day and age? Even most evangelicals don’t use it anymore. Anyway, ninja’d, but I came to post Psalm 137 (in a more modern translation): > [@](#): > > [sup]8[/sup]Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, > happy is the one who repays you > according to what you have done to us. > [sup]9[/sup]Happy is the one who seizes your infants > and dashes them against the rocks. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/80 "2015-09-03T17:30:03Z")
> [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](#): > > This being GQ, it is surely acceptable to consider references made in context as to which of the laws were _said_ to have been burned into stone by God versus written down by men, without anyone having to step up and say “Nuh-uh, you can’t say ‘God’ did anything unless you can show me your ‘God’ on a microscope slide”. That’s not at all what the poster said, nor what I said in moderating the post. > [@](#): > > Technically I suppose this should be in ATMB but ain’t no-one got time for that. If you don’t have time to bring it up in ATMB, then you don’t have time to bring it up here. Let’s drop it. Colibri General Questions Moderator [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730.md?page=5)