# Need help from the bible scholars **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 2, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730 "2015-09-02T19:23:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/101 "2015-09-04T09:38:03Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > In [2 Kings 2:23-25](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings%202%3A23-25), the prophet Elisha calls down a curse “in the name of the Lord” on some annoying little brats. Two bears appear and kill forty-two of the children. > > Not quite the same as “killing kids is OK,” but certainly along the lines of “under certain circumstances, God kills kids and that’s OK.” Yes, go up baldy! go up! what an amusing little story ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/102 "2015-09-04T09:38:52Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Though, based on archaeological evidence, the current belief is that babies weren’t burned. Rather, there may have been a ritual where babies were quickly (and painlessly) passed through a flame real quick, as a sort of spiritual cleansing, like baptism. Could you expand on this? To the best of my knowledge, archaeological evidence shows that child sacrifice did indeed take place over in Carthage - but I don’t know about ancient Palestine, hence my question. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/103 "2015-09-04T11:12:16Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > And \*\*he \*\*was wrong to do so (in the sense that Voldemort was wrong to kill Harry Potter’s parents). Capital punishment is morally wrong, in every circumstance, and always has been. Bold mine, who is ‘he’? Jesus did condemn the sentence, and in oneness with the Father. God didn’t impose or carry out the sentence, but respected the authority of the people of that land to do so (answer for why their is evil in this world). Once the extent of their authority was over and Jesus was out of the Roman’s jurisdiction, and shorty thereafter out of death, God’s ruling prevailed. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/104 "2015-09-04T12:29:04Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > On the other hand, the KJV is over 400 years old – there have been centuries of advance in our understanding of ancient languages and “correct” translations, not to mention archaeological discoveries and reams of ancient manuscripts not available in 1611. And that doesn’t even include the changes in the meaning of many _English_ words used in the KJV since then. > > It’s beautifully poetic, and worth reading as classic literature. But if you’re using it to actually argue “what the Bible says about…” (and can’t read ancient languages) then you’re far better off going with an accurate modern translation. As I said, most churches don’t even use it in normal worship anymore. OTOH, it doesn’t matter what words are used. The problem is - as we see with the misquoted “thou shalt not kill” - that the nuance of various words does not translate easily. That’s the problem also with the quoted Exodus text. Reading the new translations, they imply “she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury…” whereas the KJV is more ambiguous “so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow.” Again, the former implies live birth, the latter encompasses miscarriage. What exactly does “mischief” encompass? (Don’t want to turn this into an abortion debate, but is there a possibility that the translation is influenced by how it relates to modern social issues?) The original text, from what I’ve read about the debate, is even more ambiguous. * * * So to get back to the OP - the Bible no matter what you believe is the oral tradition and oral history of the Jewish people from long before they started writing things down. It contains their dirty history, their embellishments analogous to “George Washington and the cherry tree” (The George Washington Principle - “It’s easy to tell the truth when you’re the one holding the axe.”) It contains laws that reflects the morality of the times; note the rules relating to taking female slaves who have marital duties, multiple wives, cursing your father merits the death penalty, etc. The rules in primitive society were simpler - between nations, it was kill or be killed. If a people were conquered and then the conqueror walked away, there was always the risk the defeated would come back and attack in turn. It was always important to show the attackers meant business. Also, prison as a punishment is a relatively new concept. Few ancient governments could afford or organize that. So punishment was simple - fines, disfigurement, or death. Similarly, someone had to support everyone, there was no “move to the next town and find a job”, unattached women were unprotected from rape etc., so someone had to take care of them. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/105 "2015-09-04T13:46:27Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Although we, today, in modern English don’t have a “familiar” form, the Jacobean “thee and thou” are familiar. I hate to hijack but…what’s the formal? I ask because I’d always thought “thee” derived from the Germanic “sie”, which IS formal. And “you” from “du” which is familiar. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/106 "2015-09-04T16:48:42Z")
You is the formal, thee is the familiar. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/107 "2015-09-04T17:14:26Z")
See [Joshua 6](http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0606.htm#1) (description of the siege of Jericho): **Verse 17** And the city shall be devoted (_i.e. cursed- NP_), even it and all that is therein, to the LORD; only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent. **Verse 21** And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, both young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. **Verse 27** So the LORD was with Joshua; and his fame was in all the land. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/108 "2015-09-04T17:57:20Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > “rape” was “okay” untill fairly recently. Nonsense. Rape has been a felony in Common Law jurisdictions since the Middle Ages. I think it may be confidently supposed that most other legal systems have also proscribed it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/109 "2015-09-04T18:26:14Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > In [2 Kings 2:23-25](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings%202%3A23-25), the prophet Elisha calls down a curse “in the name of the Lord” on some annoying little brats. Two bears appear and kill forty-two of the children. > > Not quite the same as “killing kids is OK,” but certainly along the lines of “under certain circumstances, God kills kids and that’s OK.” [https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/802-2-kings-2-23-25-elisha-and-the-lads-of-bethel](https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/802-2-kings-2-23-25-elisha-and-the-lads-of-bethel) _First, the rendition “little children” is unfortunate. The Hebrew word is naar, a generic term which can encompass anyone from an infant to a mature man — the context being the deciding factor. Joseph was called a naar when he was thirty years old (cf. Genesis 41:12,40,46). Joshua was a naar when he was forty-five to fifty years of age (Exodus 33:11; Joshua 24:29)._ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/110 "2015-09-04T18:27:35Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > Nonsense. > > Rape has been a felony in Common Law jurisdictions since the Middle Ages. > > I think it may be confidently supposed that most other legal systems have also proscribed it. You took this entirely out of context. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/111 "2015-09-04T19:46:25Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > Nonsense. > > Rape has been a felony in Common Law jurisdictions since the Middle Ages. > > I think it may be confidently supposed that most other legal systems have also proscribed it. What DrDeth said. The point is that, until quite recently, things that we today would definitely consider “rape” were considered legally acceptable. To give an example, rape by one’s spouse. My argument is that such examples do not indicate that “rape is okay”, either in the early 20th century, or in biblical times. They do indicate, to I assume nobody’s surprise, that attitudes towards such things as the rights of women, and what is considered “felonious” sexual activities, have changed over time. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/112 "2015-09-04T20:21:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You took this entirely out of context. I did no such thing. Here is the entire post (#50 this thread, my insertions in square brackets, and my emphasis in bold): > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Colibri View Post > [Colibri quoted by Malthus]: I think it’s rather obvious that the OP was asking not whether killing babies or rape was OK as a generality, but whether it was considered to be permitted in any circumstances. I think the answer to that is rather clearly “yes,” as you admit in the examples given. > > [Malthuis answering]: I think it is not obvious at all. > > If that is the question, than “baby-killing” is definitely “okay” in modern society, and **“rape” was “okay” untill fairly recently**. > > Your “obvious” interpretation makes the question pretty meaningless. If additional quotation had been necessary I would have supplied it. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/113 "2015-09-04T20:35:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What DrDeth said. DrDeth was mistaken. > [@Malthus](#): > > The point is that, until quite recently, things that we today would definitely consider “rape” were considered legally acceptable. To give an example, rape by one’s spouse. One example of questionable prevalence does not come close to making the case for you. > [@Malthus](#): > > My argument is that such examples do not indicate that “rape is okay”, either in the early 20th century, or in biblical times. This constitutes a retraction of your original comment in post #50:_“rape” was “okay” untill fairly recently._ > [@Malthus](#): > > They do indicate, to I assume nobody’s surprise, that attitudes towards such things as the rights of women, and what is considered “felonious” sexual activities, have changed over time. Please try to focus on the specific crime under discussion. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/114 "2015-09-04T21:26:54Z")
Steken: > [@](#): > > In 2 Kings 2:23-25, the prophet Elisha calls down a curse “in the name of the Lord” on some annoying little brats. Two bears appear and kill forty-two of the children. They weren’t “children,” they were hoodlums. They were above the age of personal responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/115 "2015-09-04T21:29:33Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > They weren’t “children,” they were hoodlums. They were above the age of personal responsibility. Where is their age stated? And where is it stated that they were hoodlums (which implies they regularly committed other offenses?) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/116 "2015-09-04T21:41:01Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > I did no such thing. > > Here is the entire post (#50 this thread, my insertions in square brackets, and my emphasis in bold): > > If additional quotation had been necessary I would have supplied it. You simply aren’t getting what I am saying here. The logic is ‘one example, or even several, of something being okay in specific circumstances does not make it generally okay’. The part you are missing is the “if that is the question, then …”. I am not, and never have been, of the opinion that rape was actually “okay” until recently, and that isn’t what my quote says if you actually read it in context. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/117 "2015-09-04T22:00:56Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You simply aren’t getting what I am saying here. > > The logic is ‘one example, or even several, of something being okay in specific circumstances does not make it generally okay’. > > The part you are missing is the “if that is the question, then …”. I am not, and never have been, of the opinion that rape was actually “okay” until recently, and that isn’t what my quote says if you actually read it in context. I am not sure I misinterpreted what you said as written, but otherwise it seems we agree after all. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/118 "2015-09-05T01:49:03Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Where is their age stated? And where is it stated that they were hoodlums (which implies they regularly committed other offenses?) It wasn’t. “The Hebrew word is naar, a generic term which can encompass anyone from an infant to a mature man — the context being the deciding factor. Joseph was called a naar when he was thirty years old (cf. Genesis 41:12,40,46). Joshua was a naar when he was forty-five to fifty years of age (Exodus 33:11; Joshua 24:29).” Someone decided the “naar” were kids- they could have been 'youths" teens or even kids- or even pretty much any non-married man who isnt “old”. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/119 "2015-09-05T12:27:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It wasn’t. “The Hebrew word is naar, a generic term which can encompass anyone from an infant to a mature man — the context being the deciding factor. Joseph was called a naar when he was thirty years old (cf. Genesis 41:12,40,46). Joshua was a naar when he was forty-five to fifty years of age (Exodus 33:11; Joshua 24:29).” > > Someone decided the “naar” were kids- they could have been 'youths" teens or even kids- or even pretty much any non-married man who isnt “old”. Basically, naarly dudes. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730/120 "2015-09-16T22:17:21Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God did allow executions so not inconsistent (not to mention the sentence being overturned and reversed) > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > And he was wrong to do so (in the sense that Voldemort was wrong to kill Harry Potter’s parents). Capital punishment is morally wrong, in every circumstance, and always has been. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Bold mine, who is ‘he’? The fictional deity you spoke of in the post I quoted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-help-from-the-bible-scholars/729730.md?page=7)