Need help understanding right wing perspective - please

Let’s outline some fundamental principles of modern conservatives/libertarians:

[ul]
[li]TAANSTAAFL - There Ain’t No Such Thing as a Free Lunch. Much liberal thinking goes beyond mere helping those who need help, and moves into the realm of trying to legislate prosperity. Job creation programs, tariffs, socialized medicine for all (and not just the poor). Conservatives are more likely focused on the costs of these programs, and the understanding that, for instance, ‘job creation’ from the government really means job destruction in the private sector due to the taxes required to fund the jobs programs.[/li][li]The Law of Unintended Consequences - Governments suck. Central planning sucks. They are sometimes necessary, but are almost always less efficient than dynamic, bottom-up processes. Liberals are more likely to see the direct benefit of a government regulation, while conservatives are more likely to look at the side-effects the regulation will cause. For an example, consider rent controls. A liberal is more likely to say, “damned right the government should put a cap on rents! Poor people should not be kicked out of their apartments because of greedy landlords.” Conservatives are more likely to say, "Uh, if you cap rents, there will be no incentive to build more apartments or maintain the current ones. This is a prescription for a slum.’ Pass too many job regulations, and jobs move overseas. Set up minimum wage laws, and people who are not worth minimum wage become unemployable and wards of the state. Offer too much in welfare, and you will reduce the incentive to become productive. Etc.[/li][li]Respect for property rights - Liberals are often absolutists when it comes to civil liberties. Free speech, abortion, equality, etc. But they often treat property rights with contempt. Conservatives are much more likely to consider the right to work where you want and keep what you earn to be as important as the right to say what you want to say. And the conservatives are correct. If our society tried to institute ‘travel permits’, and only allow people to travel if the state approves, civil libertarians would scream. But they will turn around and try to stop people from driving or flying by putting punative taxes on their mode of transportation. For those on the margin, the outcome is identical. [/li][li]The overgeneralization of ‘rights’ - Liberals often fail to understand that you cannot have a ‘right’ to something that requires someone else to provide it. If there is one doctor in town, but two people who need full-time treatment, who has a ‘right’ to health care? And what of the doctor’s rights? Is he a slave? The conservative position is that NO ONE has a ‘right’ to health care, or a ‘right’ to a job, or a ‘right’ to three meals a day or a roof over their head. We may CHOOSE as a society to provide these things because we are rich and magnanimous. But when we codify them as ‘rights’ we make a tragic error, one that leads to an angry population, waiting lines, shortages, and eventual systemic collapse. Especially when the ‘rights’ are for things we cannot afford. Health care, for example. We simply cannot afford all the health care that we want. Some liberals refuse to believe this (see, “Legislating wealth” above), and think that all that’s required is a clever government plan. But since we can’t afford all we want, it WILL be rationed. It can either be rationed through prices and the market, which is the most efficient, or it can be rationed through government fiat, like it is in countries with socialized medicine. [/li][li]Government is DANGEROUS - Liberals are very concerned with the concentration of power in businesses. They demand heavy regulation of industry on the assumption that absent such regulation, businesses will naturally act as predators against the workers. But they are curiously unconcerned with the concentration of government power (other than when they effect civil liberties). The same people who will fight the merger of two large corporations will turn around and approve of a giant government bureaucracy that is much more inflexible and controlling. Conservatives are more likely to see government as the source of danger, rather than as the provider of solutions.[/li][/ul]

Not all conservatives buy into all of this. For example, you can find plenty of conservatives who are in favor of farm subsidies, tariffs, and the like. Most conservatives put different amounts of emphasis on different items. For myself, I’m more focused on the notion of the harm that government does that goes unnoticed. The reduction in innovation, the distortions of the market it creates, the unintended consequences that stifle growth and hurt everyone, including the rich and poor. I’m compassionate, and have no problem with social safety nets. I just don’t want the major focal point of society to be the government. I believe the government should be an enabler of freedom. The main organizing structure of society should be the myriad of interactions and transactions of free people living their lives according to their personal choices, without coercion.

I also happen to believe that that is the most efficient structure for a society. Government can help around the margins, and limited social programs can help reduce class friction and social upheaval. But government is not our big brother, our nanny, or our conscience.

This does not mean conservatives are hard-hearted, mean, or cheap. They give plenty to charity. My wife is a staunch conservative, and serves at a downtown soup kitchen regularly. We both give to charity. Last year, private individuals in the U.S. gave almost 300 billion dollars to charities - An amount greater than the entire budget for welfare, medicaid, and most other social programs combined. This isn’t about charity - it’s about whether government should coerce people into handing over their own money at gunpoint so that the government can dole it out to others.

Put in the most simple terms, here’s what I think:

Nobody gave me anything at all when I was working 80-hour weeks, sleeping on the street, getting beat up by punks, or trying to find something to eat. I sucked it up and got the job done.

I find it very difficult to generate sympathy for people who feel like they’re owed something. I do feel bad for people who are down on their luck, as that is truly unfortunate, but that sympathy evaporates the moment they hold their hand out and tell me that I owe them.

I help out of kindness and compassion, because I want to. I do not want to be compelled to.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sam Stone *
[li]Government is DANGEROUS - Liberals are very concerned with the concentration of power in businesses. They demand heavy regulation of industry on the assumption that absent such regulation, businesses will naturally act as predators against the workers. But they are curiously unconcerned with the concentration of government power (other than when they effect civil liberties).[/li][/quote]

Of course, it is all a matter of perspective. Liberals like me would say that conservatives are very concerned with the concentration of power in government … But they are curiously unconcerned with the concentration of business and economic power. And, they also seem to be rather unconcerned about economic power harnessing government for its own ends, which is really a lot of what the sort of crony capitalism of the current administration is based on.

Well, this fails to note that there are lots of “good government” organizations on the liberal side of the fence which are worried about government being inefficient, bureaucratic, and corrupted. And, there are many conservatives who seem to adopt a naively rosy view of government in the most bizarre situations…For example, with national missile defense, which is a case where government can use classification and other means to be particularly contemptuous of truth and public oversight.

Finally, I would say that while liberals recognize the virtues of markets, they don’t believe that “free market” is an incantation that automatically makes bureaucracies and other nefarious creatures disappear, appeals to the virtues of “competition” and all these cools concepts notwithstanding. One need only work at a major corporation to find that out!

I classify myself as a liberal who does have quite a bit of contempt for bureaucracy and centralized control. I see government action in many cases as perhaps a necessary evil to prevent other worse evils. And, I am interested in ways to make government policy more innovative and responsive.

Yeah, but you’re the smartest liberal I know, so you don’t count.

(-:

Okay, how about this distinction: Liberals seek ‘better’ government, ‘smarter’ government, etc. They think government is a system that just needs to be managed correctly. Conservatives on the other hand, see government as fundamentally flawed, inefficient, and dangerous by its very nature.

Tygr: There is a significant sentiment here that places an extremely high value on individualism and self-reliance. Indeed, most of us credit our success as a nation to these very values, and wonder as to the sense of those insisting we turn away from those values in order to satisfy a feeling of taking care of our peers, now that we’re wealthy, when such changes would surely impact the sustainability of that condition.

This seems to me to be another very common strain in conservative thinking: “we’re uniquely successful as a nation and it’s due to our rugged independence.”

Sometimes, I think, it becomes a sort of incantation and doesn’t inspire much real reflection on its validity. But if we look at it closely, it has a lot of debatable aspects.

Are we actually outstandingly successful as a nation, and if so, in what ways? We certainly do have the most and the richest rich people, we’ve got the second-highest per-capita GDP (after Luxembourg), we have a lot of individual freedoms, and we have (as of now) unmatched superpower status.

However, we’re only the 6th most livable country according to the UN “Human Development Index”; we don’t even make it into the top ten countries worldwide for highest life expectancy, most effective education, lowest infant mortality, lowest inflation, or lowest corruption; one-seventh of our population has no health care coverage; we lead the world in pollution; our workers put in longer hours and have less job security and weaker worker-protection laws than in most of the rest of the developed world; our median real income has increased only slightly in the past three decades; our individual and household debt levels have been steadily rising and our savings levels falling; we have high levels of violent crime; and we have low levels of citizen awareness of and participation in government.

I don’t mean to be a Chicken Little here; there are certainly also lots of positive aspects about the US that I didn’t list. I’m just pointing out that the advantages we have are not some kind of miraculous reward for being individualist; they are the outcome of specific policy choices, and they come with downsides.

If Europe is somewhat “Americanizing” economically, many of us feel that America needs to “Europeanize” somewhat as well. There are plenty of Americans who are willing to put up with, for example, a somewhat higher tax burden in order to achieve, for example, universal basic health coverage—i.e., there are plenty of Americans who are not right-wing conservatives.

SS: [Liberals] think government is a system that just needs to be managed correctly. Conservatives on the other hand, see government as fundamentally flawed, inefficient, and dangerous by its very nature.

How are those positions necessarily contradictory? One can believe that a system is “fundamentally flawed, inefficient, and dangerous by its very nature” and still believe that it “needs to be managed correctly”—in fact, the more dangerous you think it is, the more important it is to manage it correctly!

Do conservatives not see other aspects of society as having fundamental flaws, inefficiencies, and dangers? Perhaps it’s not so much that liberals have a utopian view of government, as that conservatives have a utopian view of the absence of government.

** Airman** if you’d have lived in a society were you did get help when you needed it do you think you’d have a different viewpoint?

Interesting thread…

My own view would be that by refusing people things like healthcare and education you are in effect lowering their opportunities, and thus their freedom. Especially so in the case of healthcare - dieing or being forced to pay large bills for eg cancer significantly curtails your freedom. Thus while taxing people represents some loss of freedom for everyone, denying certain people healthcare/education would mean an even greater loss for some people, and a greater loss of freedom in total. Thus some taxation and spending is necessary to maximise the total level of freedom. I guess this viewpoint makes me liberal.

What is the right wing responce to this argument? Do you disagree that opportunity = freedom? Or do you disagree that the loss of freedom by taxing is smaller than the loss of freedom for certain citizens by not paying for their healthcare or whatever? Or is it something else?

There are also plenty of Americans who are not “right-wing conservatives” who do not want a state run health care system. There’s a political process in place to implement a European style system of health coverage if that’s what the American people want. In fact, there are 50 political systems in place here to do that. I’d hope we’re smart enough to keep it at the state level if it’s going to happen.

I think a fundament tenet of American conservatism is: Don’t do something at the federal level if it can be done at the state level.

Probably true. One reason for this is that, in a non-monopoly environment, you can choose whether or not to patronize a given business. Thus the discipline of the market is allowed to operate - if enough people don’t like what the business is doing, they go elsewhere, and the business either changes or goes out of business. You can’t do that with government. I can choose whether or not to shop at Wal-Mart; I have no choice in whether or not to pay my taxes. As more functions in society transfer from the private sector to being government funded, I lose more and more of that choice and that freedom.

Which is why capitalism is more democratic than socialism. Maybe the workers would get together and vote once a month to decide how to run their factory (more likely, a bureaucrat would be appointed). But I decide whether to buy or not a thousand times a day.

True. And local is better than state government; private is better than public, and the family is better than strangers.

At every level, the conservative preference is for the more decentralized level of authority. Which is why Alien’s post somewhat misses the point.

The examples you mention are instances of conservatives expressing their preference for a lower level of authority. We prefer private to public, local to state government, state to federal, and federal to international.

For instance, if Belgium takes it on itself to decide to arrest our government officials for implementing US policies, conservatives see an attempt to move the locus of responsibility away even from Washington, to a group nobody in the US elected, and answerable to no one in America.

For the same reason, conservatives oppose treaties such as the UN agreement on children’s rights, even though it would be a nice thing if all children were happy. The pressure to get the US to ratify such a treaty is (in part) an attempt to get the US to hand over authority for deciding children’s issues from the United States to the UN. Add to that the idea that Belgium or the Netherlands wants to exercise veto power over US foreign policy, and you see the prospect for a major loss of freedom in America. We sign the children’s rights treaty, some clown in Belgium hauls President Bush into court because he thinks we aren’t spending enough money on health care - and the UN backs the Belgians up.

Conservatives, as you mention, dislike laws and regulations. Liberals love them. If they can get something defined as a “right”, and can get the issue into a court someplace, they can get a judge who is appointed, not elected, to issue a ruling that says the country has to do what the liberal wants - and thus bypass all that messy business about convincing people that yours was a good idea.

Voters tell their elected representatives what to do (in a republic) by voting for them, or not. Judges tell their constituents what to do, by imposing sanctions, or not. It is easier to order people to do something, instead of convincing them to do it.

Which largely explains the panic some liberals feel at the thought that Roe v. Wade might be overturned. Roe v. Wade said that states did not have the right to regulate abortion, because abortion was defined as a “right”. If Roe v. Wade were overturned, it would not mean that abortion was illegal. It would mean, however, that pro-choice advocates would have to convince a majority in fifty state legislatures, instead of five Justices.

Even pro-choice conservatives have argued against Roe v. Wade based on the grounds that it locates authority where it does not belong. Part of the consistent principle of preferring the lowest manageable level of authority.

Sam Stone, your presentation of conservative principles was both more cogent, and better expressed than mine. Thanks for it.

Regards,
Shodan

I second Shodan’s praise of your concise summation of core pricipals, Sam Stone.

Liberal’s, PLEASE NOTE that I did NOT say “Dittoes”. :stuck_out_tongue:

Perhaps conservatives feel that the benefits outweigh the downsides? That trying to eradicate the downsides will destroy the positives? I don’t know if we’ve got “rose colored glasses” on or not, but at least we aren’t wearing mud-colored ones.

And who mentioned a “miraculous reward”? Conservatives know damn well that the wonderful standard of living we enjoy today is a result of generations of blood, sweat ‘n’ tears. Hard work that is still going on today. And we want to make sure that the blood, sweat and tears of today will continue to benefit and grow our nation rather than vanish down some federal bureaucratic black hole.

I admit to sensing a whiff of a “mind-numbed robot” accusation in your opening paragraphs, once again alluding to the idea that conservatives are that way because they just haven’t thought much about it. I hope I’m mis-reading.

You hit the nail on the head with this post, Sam.

This sums up my philosophy very well. I could be called a conservative libertarian type. I disagree with the liberals 90% of the time, and I only disagree with the conservatives about 40% of the time.

As somone who is mostly conservative, I think I understand the liberal position on most issues. I just disagree with it. The way that they try and help any problem by making the government larger ulitmately hurts all of us, IMO.

It’s frustrating for me that many liberals, or simply those that are unfamiliar with American conservatives simply don’t get what we stand for at all. I appreciate the open mindedness shown of the OP to genuinly attempt to understand something new and foreign. I just wish more people were capable of the same.

Many conservative positions can appear to just be mean spirited or cruel at first glance. The oppostion to minimum raise increases is an example. To someone not familiar with the issue, this might seem like conservatives just don’t care about the plights of poor people. However, the reason we oppose this is because increasing the minimum wage leads to less employment for those workers. A store employing ten people may have to lay off two to afftord the other eight at the higher wages. It also hurts small businesses and the overall economy because they can’t afford the higher wages and they go under. Now, lots of liberals and others who disagree with conservatives do understand these arguments and still disagree with them, and that’s fine. However, there are many who simply don’t understand that there are any reasons at all for conservative positions besides us being bad people.

Sam Stone stated:

Hmmm. Interesting. As BrainGlutton stated, there is more than one conservative, why should all liberals share the same view? I consider myself more liberal than most, and yet I consider property rights to be highly important. I especially resent the recent laws that allow search, seizure, and wire-tapping without warrants. Ironically enough, it wasn’t that damn liberal Clinton that signed the Patriot Act into law, it was the “compassionate conservative”. And it is not the liberals drafting the Patriot Act II that would cancel the sunset provisions in the Patriot Act. If you take your conservative views seriously, you might want to consider whether voting for this “compassionate conservative” would do more harm than a moderate liberal in office.

Nahtanoj

The patriot act is widely mis-understood and villified from what I have seen. Nothing in there allows search, seizure or wire-tapping without warrants that I am aware of.

Debaser:

One thing to be wary of is to take a “whatever works” philosophy towards public policy. Min wage laws can and should be argued against on the fundamental principle that gov’t should not interfere with adults to make concentual contracts with other adults. And to not disallow someone from working if their skills are worth less than the min wage. If you accept the test that “if it works, it’s good” then you concede the premise (min wage laws are good) and just end up arguing about the details (should it be $4/hr or $5/hr). I see the Republicans pretty much in that camp on most issues.

The fact that many liberal ideas make society worse (materially) is secondary to the fact that they violate the principles of freedom on which this country was founded.

A true conservative (libertarian) perspective looks at the limited authority given to the gov’t, and insisting that the gov’t not extend it’s authority beyond those limits.

The “whatever works” philosophy is pragmatism, not conservatism.

Prompted by this statement, and in an ongoing attempt to unravel the economically ultra-rightwing (EURW, for want of a better acrostic) mindset, might I ask:

Do you believe that universal healthcare/food/shelter provision creates more suffering than a system with a less comprehensive safety net? For example, does a rich nation with a high rate of homelessness have a lower degree of suffering than a less wealthy nation in which the state provides food, shelter and healthcare to all?

Debaser, interesting post.

I also must be conservative because I disagree with liberals about 90% of the time and disagree with conservatives 40% – a good guess anyway.

What makes it interesting to me is that the example you picked, minimum wage increases, is an issue I agree with the liberals on.

Go figure :slight_smile:

Good point.

This is exactly why when you ask for my opinion on anything I have two answers:

  1. The What I would do if I was in charge answer. This is where I forget about how realistic the ideas we are talking about are and anything is possible. Using this answer I would agree absolutely with what you said. In a perfect world, the government would not have anything to do with minimum wage laws because that’s not what we have government for.

However, I was giving you my #2 answer:

  1. The What I think we should do in the real world answer. This is the answer based on the reality that we find ourselves in. It is usually a compromise, but actually has the possibility of actually happenning.

The minimum wage laws are not going anywhere. If Bush and the republicans repealed them entirely the political fallout would be too much to bear. Rather than argue for this impossible scenario, I would rather point out that at the very least we should resist raising the wage because it does more harm than good.

You’re right though. The true conservative opinion is that the government has no business interfering in the first place.

However, I think it’s still a good example of a subject that makes conservatives mis-understood.

Debaser

You are correct in that a warrant is still required. However, under Section 213:

So, they can search and seize property and not inform you of the warrant about until a “reasonable period” has passed.

And concerning the wire-tapping, trying to interpret the legalese of teh US Code (title 18, section 2511(2)(f)) made my head spin. So here is an EFF analysis of the survillience sections of the patriot act:

This is another debate entirely.

I have no idea what an “EFF analysis” is. Usually on the boards you provide a cite that links to were you are getting your quotes from. That source looks heavily biased to me. The fact that you can’t understand the law doesn’t give you an excuse to post a partisan rant without any evidence or cite.

It’s clear that you don’t like the patriot act. It’s also clear that you don’t know anything about the patriot act. However since the Republicans are behind it you suspect that there must be something evil about it.

Unwittingly, you have provided an excellent example of what I was talking about in my first post on this page of the thread.

Ok, then. Let’s end this hijack.