# Need some examples from the Old Testament- God can be harsh **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 11, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879 "2005-06-11T19:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/1 "2005-06-11T19:20:47Z")
For instance didn’t he turn Lot’s wife into a pillar of salt just for turning around to see her home town one more time. I’m particularlly interested in an example from the book of numbers where he has the earth swallow up some guy. Anyone know who the guy was or what his crime was? Could use two or three more and clarification of the above. Also examples where the victim did nothing wrong, such as little children during the flood. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/2 "2005-06-11T19:25:34Z")
He allowed Satan to really do a number on Job for no good reason. ---
**Author:** ![Tentacle\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@Tentacle\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tentacle_Monster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/3 "2005-06-11T19:31:20Z")
From 2 Kings 2, via [BibleGateway.com](http://BibleGateway.com): > [@](#): > > 23And he (Elisha) went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. > > 24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. So God, on behalf of Elisha, killed 42 kids with bears for calling him a baldy. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/4 "2005-06-11T19:54:16Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** I don’t think this really belongs in Cafe Society (unless you just want to discuss the Old Testament as literature). If you’re just looking for people to list verses it’s more of an IMHO thread; I suspect, though, that people are going to be really tempted to disagree about what constitutes “harsh”. For now, I’m moving this to IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/5 "2005-06-11T20:02:19Z")
[Deuteronomy 13:6-11](http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=deut%2013:6-11;&version=31;): > [@](#): > > If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again. [Deuteronomy 20:16-18](http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=deut%2020:16-18;&version=31;): > [@](#): > > However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God. [Joshua 10:40](http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=josh%2010:40;&version=31;): > [@](#): > > So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded. [1 Samuel 15:1-3](http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=1%20sam%2015:1-3;&version=31;): > [@](#): > > Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ " ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/6 "2005-06-11T21:45:30Z")
> [@Plan B](#): > > For instance didn’t he turn Lot’s wife into a pillar of salt just for turning around to see her home town one more time. > > I’m particularlly interested in an example from the book of numbers where he has the earth swallow up some guy. Anyone know who the guy was or what his crime was? > > Could use two or three more and clarification of the above. Also examples where the victim did nothing wrong, such as little children during the flood. > > Thanks. [Here you go](http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html) ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/7 "2005-06-11T21:46:05Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > **Moderator’s Note:** I don’t think this really belongs in Cafe Society (unless you just want to discuss the Old Testament as literature). If you’re just looking for people to list verses it’s more of an IMHO thread; I suspect, though, that people are going to be really tempted to disagree about what constitutes “harsh”. For now, I’m moving this to IMHO. Actually, I put it in Cafe Society in order to avoid disagreements. I was thinking that even if one accepts the Bible as the literal word of God it is still OK to view it as literature. My second choice would have been GD. But I’m OK with your judgement on this. Just looking to fight some ignorance. Whatever works. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/8 "2005-06-11T21:47:38Z")
> [@Linty Fresh](#): > > [Here you go](http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html) Hey, I asked for two or three! What am I gonna do with 708? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/9 "2005-06-11T22:19:05Z")
I think you do need a little context. The Old Testament describes God as a god of justice, and that sometimes comes across as harsh. The Egyptians enslaved the Israelites and so were visited by plagues; the Egyptian pharoah ordered the newborn Israelites be killed, so the final plague is the death of the Egyptian first-born. This was seen by the biblical author(s) as justice – perhaps a harsh justice, but the crimes were harsh too. God is also described in the Old Testament as a god of mercy, and so you have stories such as Hagar and her infant Ishmael, cast out into the desert, and God shows them mercy (and justice, by relieving their suffering.) Rabbinic interpretation (from, say 400 BC through 200 AD) always focuses the explanation of these “harsh” acts as being strict justice. I note that today is the Jewish sabbath, so the Old Testament experts who are orthodox Jews won’t be posting until Sunday… and Sunday night, Monday, and Tuesday this week are Jewish holidays, so they may not be posting then, either. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/10 "2005-06-11T22:29:12Z")
The typically rebellious, T-shirt-wearing teenager could, if held to the strict injunctions from, IIRC, **Leviticus** , be sentenced to death, on two counts: 1) filial disobedience or defiance; and 2) wearing clothing made from fabric of mixed threads, or admixed threads (cotton and polyester). The second prohibition never made any sense to me, except as an example of the scrupulous taboo system of the ancient Hebrews, which forbade other kinds of cominglings, as between milk and meat. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/11 "2005-06-12T16:40:12Z")
I always felt the book of Job depicted God at his most capricious. Here’s Job, God’s most loyal and penitent servant…and God utterly destroys his life. Why? God made a bet with Satan. (How much was that bet, anyway? A dollar?) And when Job finally broke down and complained, God basically said, _“Go screw yourself, human scum…I am GOD and I can do whatever fuck all I want!!!”_ ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/12 "2005-06-12T16:46:35Z")
I wish y’all wouldn’t give the theocons ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/13 "2005-06-12T17:14:07Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > I think you do need a little context. The Old Testament describes God as a god of justice, and that sometimes comes across as harsh. The Egyptians enslaved the Israelites and so were visited by plagues; the Egyptian pharoah ordered the newborn Israelites be killed, so the final plague is the death of the Egyptian first-born. This was seen by the biblical author(s) as justice – perhaps a harsh justice, but the crimes were harsh too. I dunno, man. In my book, there’s a name for killing innocent citizens of a nation in retaliation for evil acts perpetrated by that nation’s rulers, and the name ain’t ‘justice.’ Besides, there are many cases (such as the killing of the Amalekites by the Israelites described in 1 Samuel 15) which are difficult to describe as justice. The Amalekites were living on land God wanted the Israelites to have, and fought to keep the Israelites from taking it, and for this it is just that they _all_ die–men, women, children, even the livestock? Harsh doesn’t describe it. ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/14 "2005-06-12T17:35:09Z")
> [@The Scrivener](#): > > 1. wearing clothing made from fabric of mixed threads, or admixed threads (cotton and polyester). Sheesh. Where, exactly, do people get the idea that the Torah prescribes the death penalty for violations of every single commandment? There’s a fairly short list of things that rate capital punishment. On top of that, the prohibition of _shatnez_ is against mixing wool and linen - see Deuteronomy 22:11. The top I wore to synagogue yesterday was a silk/nylon blend, FWIW ;j **PlanB** , the people swallowed by the earth were Korach, Datan, and Aviram (not sure how that would be rendered in English, probably Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, or something like that), along with all of their possessions. The actual swallowing is in Numbers 16:31-33, but the story takes up the entire chapter. They fomented a rebellion officially over the creation of the priesthood, but that seems to have been more about the Exodus, complaining that G-d took them from “a land of milk and honey” to be in this desert; if you read it, the chutzpah comes across even now. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/15 "2005-06-12T23:21:07Z")
Does telling Abraham to sacrifice his son count? A nasty tale. On a global scale, how about wiping out almost the entire population of the Earth with the Flood. What had they done to offend God? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/16 "2005-06-13T14:17:25Z")
A late shout for [Evil Bible](http://www.evilbible.com/) for all you God-Bashing needs. > [@](#): > > It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said “Thou shall not kill”. For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/17 "2005-06-13T15:11:29Z")
> [@Sophistry and Illusion](#): > > The Amalekites were living on land God wanted the Israelites to have, and fought to keep the Israelites from taking it, and for this it is just that they _all_ die–men, women, children, even the livestock? Harsh doesn’t describe it. No they weren’t. The Amalekites didn’t live anywhere near Israelite land. They attacked the Israelites just to wipe them out. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/18 "2005-06-13T15:38:18Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > No they weren’t. The Amalekites didn’t live anywhere near Israelite land. They attacked the Israelites just to wipe them out. You’re right; I am misremembering my OT. It wasn’t the Amalekites who were killed for land; it was someone else (see \*\*Tagos’s \*\* post). Nevertheless, while killing combatant aggressors is often justified, my original point still stands: it is not clear how being under attack gives a nation the moral right to kill \*everyone \* from the attacking nation, which is what God ordered the Israelites to do to the Amalekites. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/19 "2005-06-13T15:54:12Z")
> [@Sophistry and Illusion](#): > > Nevertheless, while killing combatant aggressors is often justified, my original point still stands: it is not clear how being under attack gives a nation the moral right to kill \*everyone \* from the attacking nation, which is what God ordered the Israelites to do to the Amalekites. It was retribution. The Amelekites tried to commit genocide against Israel and failed, and for punishment, the Israelites committed genocide against them. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879/20 "2005-06-13T16:48:45Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > It was retribution. The Amelekites tried to commit genocide against Israel and failed, and for punishment, the Israelites committed genocide against them. That’s some harsh-ass retribution, killing the Amalekite army’s wives, sisters, children, mothers, grandparents, and goats. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/need-some-examples-from-the-old-testament-god-can-be-harsh/307879.md?page=2)