# Negative things about Carson. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 25, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590 "2005-01-25T15:15:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/41 "2005-01-25T22:54:38Z")
_Unitard_! I meant “unitard”, a blue one. There might be a shapely, buxom blonde in a yellow leotard but she doesn’t speak French. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/42 "2005-01-25T22:56:52Z")
Damn! I just realized I was right the first time, it was indeed a blue leotard. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/43 "2005-01-25T23:16:07Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > Perhaps it was a generational thing, too. Carson was simply from a pre-rock generation and was far more apt to book the likes of John Davidson, Englebert Humperdinck, or Petula Clark. You are correct, sir! I think inter-generational friction has a lot to do with some of the expressed animosity towards Carson. For many people who came of age after the mid 60’s, Carson was of the “old guard”; he was part of “The Establishment”; he was more relevent to people your parents’ age than you. You can see this tension reflected in the snippy comments Lorne Michaels made about Carson over the years (and, likewise, Carson about Michaels and SNL during the early part of that show’s run). That’s also probably why Howard Stern’s been blasting Carson these last few days (but, let’s face it, aside from a few people like David Letterman, Stern generally has no respect for most celebrities–living or dead). The story about the Youngbloods was interesting. I recall reading sometime in the late 70’s that Carson actually didn’t have a closed mind about rock and was even a fan of the Rolling Stones. The reason why he had a problem booking rock acts on the Tonight Show was because too many of them were insufferable prima donnas. I now think Carson was likely referring to the Youngbloods fiasco (and an earlier incident with Buffalo Springfield) when he made this comment. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/44 "2005-01-25T23:18:32Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > As I [posted in the tribute thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5760087#post5760087), the Johnny Carson moment that first springs to mind ifor me is an example of compassion and kindness. To paraphrase what I said earlier, a thread consisting of nothing but negative comments is a thread of lies and half-truths just as much as the tribute threads are. Real life is much more complicated and therefore much more interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/45 "2005-01-25T23:18:37Z")
> [@TeaElle](#): > > No one I’ve seen remembering Johnny _in the guise of a close friend_ says anything about him “closing his gates” 10 years ago. They do acknowledge that he did stop seeing people in the last 4-6 months. Both Don Rickles and Merv Griffin said that they last saw him at the end of the summer/beginning of the fall. Tom Drisen said something similar. > > That, however, makes perfect sense. Johnny was clearly on steroid therapy the last time he was photographed in public; his lungs were failing. He was dying, and he wanted that process to be private and didn’t want his friends to remember him enfeebled and debilitated. Dying of emphysema is ugly, scary and sad, if you had the ability to protect the people you liked from bearing witness to the process, you likely would, too. Some months ago, I saw an interview with Ed McMahon and he stated that he’d played cards with Carson on a regular basis. He didn’t talk much about Johnny’s health, but he indicated that Carson was in good spirits and just enjoying _not_ being in the spotlight. Last night on The Tonight Show, Leno spent the entire broadcast talking about how wonderful Johnny was. Now, if Leno didn’t really like Johnny, he wouldn’t have to do that. He could have spent just a few minutes talking about Johnny, and then gone on with the show. Instead, Jay talked about Johnny, showed clips, and had Ed McMahon, Don Rickles, Bob Newhart, and Drew Carrey on the show to talk about Johnny. In an interview on NPR yesterday, Dick Cavett said, “I wish I knew who had hurt Johnny so to make him such a private person.” To me, that sounds like Cavett felt that whatever problems Johnny may have had, _they weren’t Johnny’s fault._ As for Johnny saying nasty things about his ex-wives on air, well, how many people do you know who say _nice_ things about their exes? Very few. Hell, a number of comics have made _careers_ out of saying nasty things about their spouses and exes (Rodney Dangerfield, Henny Youngman and Phyllis Diller spring to mind). Whatever flaws the man may have had, he brought joys to millions of people, which is more than most of us can say. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/46 "2005-01-25T23:23:10Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > As for Johnny saying nasty things about his ex-wives on air, well, how many people do you know who say _nice_ things about their exes? Very few. Hell, a number of comics have made _careers_ out of saying nasty things about their spouses and exes (Rodney Dangerfield, Henny Youngman and Phyllis Diller spring to mind). It didn’t help that the divorces were tabloid fodder and you couldn’t avoid the stories. Imagine if they had E! and so forth back them. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/47 "2005-01-25T23:27:45Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > I heard a D.J. on the radio say that Joan Rivers and Johnny Carson had a major falling out after Joan had “screwed him over”, or possibly the other way around. Does anyone know what that was all about? In the mid-80s, Joan Rivers was the preferred guest host for Carson. The brand new Fox Network, seeking a big name, signed Rivers to host a talk show to compete with Tonight. For whatever reason (accounts differ) Rivers didn’t tell Carson before the story leaked to the press. Carson had been probably the single biggest booster of Rivers’ career, and he felt she betrayed him by going up against him, and doubly betrayed that she didn’t tell him before he found out like everyone else. After Rivers left, Gary Shandling and Jay Leno (and eventually just Leno) became the “permanent” substitute hosts. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/48 "2005-01-25T23:28:52Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Damn! I just realized I was right the first time, it was indeed a blue leotard. Your eyes were probably, like mine, on something other than her clothing. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/49 "2005-01-26T01:29:54Z")
That’s really cool, **ianzin**! Thanks to the SDMB, I’m now 2 degrees of separation from Johnny Carson. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Torgo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@Torgo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Torgo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/50 "2005-01-26T02:14:54Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > That’s really cool, **ianzin**! Thanks to the SDMB, I’m now 2 degrees of separation from Johnny Carson. 😃 So…since Carson attended parties with Frank Sinatra, I’m 3 degrees of separation from Ol’ Blue Eyes…and 5 degrees from Zeppo Marx! ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/51 "2005-01-26T02:22:20Z")
Stern has always a been a tasteless crass oaf towards any other entertainer who is popular, apparently because he feels that no one save himself should be appreciated by a radio or TV audience. He made nasty comments about Carson, other popular FM morning DJs, because he’s a self-absorbed :wally The fact is that Howard Stern, if you take away the shock, if you take away the potty humor, is really nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/52 "2005-01-26T02:28:20Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > In the mid-80s, Joan Rivers was the preferred guest host for Carson. The brand new Fox Network, seeking a big name, signed Rivers to host a talk show to compete with Tonight. For whatever reason (accounts differ) Rivers didn’t tell Carson before the story leaked to the press. > > Carson had been probably the single biggest booster of Rivers’ career, and he felt she betrayed him by going up against him, and doubly betrayed that she didn’t tell him before he found out like everyone else. > > After Rivers left, Gary Shandling and Jay Leno (and eventually just Leno) became the “permanent” substitute hosts. And when her show tanked, she lashed out and blamed everybody, asserting “maybe I’m too New York Jewish for certain people”–as if being Jewish has stymied the careers of this nation’s finest comedians. BTW, thanks for straightening out the truth regarding NBC being unhappy with Carson. Talk show hosts go through cycles of popularity. Witness Letterman and Leno. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/53 "2005-01-26T02:36:48Z")
Oh yeah, I was watching Hardball tonight and found out that McMahon was a Marine and served almost right up until he started working with Johnny. Ya think that a Marine would take shit off of a Navy guy like Johnny, if Johnny treated Ed poorly? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/54 "2005-01-26T02:39:43Z")
Okay, here’s my catty remark, based totally on speculation. People have described him as classy for walking away from the limelight the way he did. This guy was a huge smoker for many years and died from emphysema. I’m wondering if he wasn’t real anxious to be seen in public with his oxygen tank. To his credit, I used him as an excuse to my parents to stay up late many times. I save my disgust for Bob Hope, who used to think it was a real “treat” to walk on and crash the party when somebody else was an invited guest. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/55 "2005-01-26T02:39:58Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > And when her show tanked, she lashed out and blamed everybody, asserting “maybe I’m too New York Jewish for certain people”–as if being Jewish has stymied the careers of this nation’s finest comedians. Yeah, it would have to be the Jewish thing. It wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact that she’s not funny, huh? ---
**Author:** ![AveDementia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@AveDementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AveDementia)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/56 "2005-01-26T03:39:36Z")
> [@JillGat](#): > > To his credit, I used him as an excuse to my parents to stay up late many times. I save my disgust for Bob Hope, who used to think it was a real “treat” to walk on and crash the party when somebody else was an invited guest. I will always have a little soft spot for Robin Williams, no matter how much I generally dislike him, because of this one time he was on the Tonight Show when Bob Hope was also a guest. Robin was doing publicity for (IIRC) the movie _Toys_, and was totally “on” from the moment he took his seat until they introduced the next guest. He was going so fast with the jokes everybody was laughing their asses off. And Johnny was, at times, leaning over holding on to his desk because he was laughing so hard he was about to fall out of his chair. I was rolling right along with them. It was just awesome. And then the next guest, Bob Hope, came out. He was _so pissed_ at having to follow that, he was just **livid**. And that just made it that much better. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/57 "2005-01-26T04:30:01Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > Howard Stern has really been ripping on Carson the last couple of days. While he certainly isn’t the best source of information, you don’t need to feel like it’s patently false just because he says it. > > Anyway, among the things I’ve heard from Howard. . . > > Joan Rivers said Carson never talked to her or anyone during commercials. I distinctly remember numerous occasions when the Tonight Show would return from commercial and you could see Johnny and the guest in the middle of a laugh, or finishing a conversation. I think he just didn’t want to talk to Rivers, and with her ego that translated into, “he doesn’t talk with anyone”. > [@](#): > > He wasn’t friends with anyone, even Ed McMahon, who has been playing the “friend” card since his death. Not true. Carson had regular poker nights where the likes of McMahon, Tom Dreesen, Chevy Chase, Don Rickles, Bob Newhart, Fred DeCordova and a handful of other friends were regulars. It sounds to me like Johnny maintained a ‘normal’ life in Hollywood, where that’s a sin. Most of us have a close circle of friends that we accociate with, and we don’t do the cocktail circuit and hang out with different people every day. But Johnny was the King, and many celebrities would no doubt be horribly offended if they offered friendship and he didn’t accept. A blow to the ego. Kind of like calling the beautiful girl in school conceited because she doesn’t like YOU. > [@](#): > > Most of the people who are remembering him so fondly, none had even talked to him for about 10 years. Merv Griffin talked about how Carson basically “shut the gates” at his house. Yes. Johnny retired from showbiz. When he left, he maintained ties with those celebs who became close friends, and cut ties with the others who were just part of the job. Just like when people retire from the factory they don’t continue to hang around it or invite the boss and co-workers over for barbecue, except for the ones who became good friends. I imagine that to a Hollywood ego, finding out that the top dog on the block considered you ‘just business’, was pretty intolerable. Hence the bad faith. > [@](#): > > He didn’t like Leno and Leno didn’t like him. He didn’t even mention Leno on his farewell show. Leno’s problem was Helen Kushnick. He let her be his public face, and she was a total bitch, strong-arming everyone in sight. After Leno had the tonight show, there was another major incident where she was threatening guests that they’d be boycotted from _The Tonight Show_ if they appeared on Letterman’s show. I believe that eventually led to her firing, if I recall correctly. But I think she burned more than a few people around Jay. Leno himself is a guy much like Carson - very private, very ‘normal’. Carson did astronomy and tennis, and Leno hides in his workshop and restores cars. From what I know, Leno worships Carson, and his monologue last night sure seemed heart felt. Perhaps Leno was a little hurt that Johnny didn’t like him, if that’s true. But Johnny did pick Leno to be permanent guest host (or at least accept the pick), so perhaps the stories of bad blood are exaggerations. > [@](#): > > Carson was power hungry and controlling and had certain people fired for personal slights. There’s always two sides to any firing. I imagine that those who were fired had more than a few nasty things to say about it. > [@](#): > > Dick Cavitt said that Carson was mean when he was sober and even meaner when he was drunk. > > Howard said that Carson slapped his wife in front of others. Those two I hadn’t heard. > [@](#): > > Personally, I seem to recall that McMahon, at the time, went on Arsenio and maybe Letterman, but not on Leno. Perhaps Ed just felt strange going back to his ‘old show’ and seeing how it had changed. Perhaps he didn’t want to taint his memory of the show. But in any event, he was on last night. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/58 "2005-01-26T10:05:39Z")
I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but I just can’t imagine an intelligent public figure like Carson who rose from obscure beginnings in a small town equally non-close to NYC and LA to being the most famous celebrity in the nation and one who knew there would always be cameras clicking and people watching him whenever he was in public and tabloid employees literally going through his trash being _stupid_ enough to slap his wife in public. Now he may have worked her over with a baseball bat and a CB antenna when they got home, but for the sake of his career he’d probably have refrained in front of witnesses. He seems like the type who would have been mortified by anything resembling a public scene. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/59 "2005-01-26T10:26:58Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > 1. Ask the “Youngbloods” what they think of good old Johnny and the snippy way he announced why they would not be appearing on his show. I googled “youngbloods ‘tonight show’ carson”. Couldn’t find much except a reference that they had been promised tow songs then Carson renigged- seems they chose to walk rather than just do the one song. Can you fill us in on the details and the snippiness? ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590/60 "2005-01-26T10:35:51Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > I googled “youngbloods ‘tonight show’ carson”. Couldn’t find much except a reference that they had been promised tow songs then Carson renigged- seems they chose to walk rather than just do the one song. > > Can you fill us in on the details and the snippiness? No, and I usually don’t pester people about their spelling, but you need to take care the next time you write the word “reneged.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negative-things-about-carson/286590.md?page=4)