# Negligent manslaughter question (dog/child story on Yahoo) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 8, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negligent-manslaughter-question-dog-child-story-on-yahoo/542469 "2010-06-08T22:06:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negligent-manslaughter-question-dog-child-story-on-yahoo/542469/41 "2010-06-09T21:20:51Z")
I would even go so far as to say she was trying to do the **right** thing. She went outside to smoke. Her mistake was in leaving the baby where the dogs could get it. I see nothing wrong with leaving a sleeping infant in its crib and stepping outside to have a smoke. When I nannied for infant twins there was more than one time when they just would not stop crying and I put them in their cribs and stepped out on the porch for a few minutes to give myself a break. Charging her with manslaughter is insane. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negligent-manslaughter-question-dog-child-story-on-yahoo/542469/42 "2010-06-09T22:11:38Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > I think it’s fair to say that this is a case where putting her in jail and leaving her with a criminal record isn’t going to do anything positive. She may have done something negligent, but she’s probably already been punished enough. It may be intended as a deterrent and warning to others. If she was not charged, then first, the story would not get as much attention; and second, some observers would describe the child’s death as simply a regrettable “tragedy,” not a reasonably-foreseeable possible consequence of her actions. Officially putting responsibility on _her_ makes the point that other adults in similar situations are also responsible for what happens to babies in their care. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negligent-manslaughter-question-dog-child-story-on-yahoo/542469/43 "2010-06-10T04:08:35Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > No excuses. You NEVER leave an infant alone in the house, EVER. Not once, not for a minute. Even if there’s \*not \*a dog there. All right, but this particular incident could’ve happened if she’d stepped into the kitchen to get a bite to eat, or make a bottle for the baby, or if she’d gone to the bathroom. Surely we’re not suggesting that a mother must have her children physically in her presence 24 hours a day if there are animals in the house? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negligent-manslaughter-question-dog-child-story-on-yahoo/542469/44 "2010-06-10T04:22:39Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > All right, but this particular incident could’ve happened if she’d stepped into the kitchen to get a bite to eat, or make a bottle for the baby, or if she’d gone to the bathroom. Surely we’re not suggesting that a mother must have her children physically in her presence 24 hours a day if there are animals in the house? I’ve always heard that you never leave an animal and a small child/baby unattended, so, yeah. Put the dog in another room or outside and then do what you have to do, but don’t leave them alone. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negligent-manslaughter-question-dog-child-story-on-yahoo/542469/45 "2010-06-10T13:53:59Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > All right, but this particular incident could’ve happened if she’d stepped into the kitchen to get a bite to eat, or make a bottle for the baby, or if she’d gone to the bathroom. Well, it _wouldn’t_ have happened if she’d stepped into the kitchen. Not unless the kitchen is in the east wing of the mansion or something, or she’d gone to sleep on the counter. Dogs know when a person is present in the general area. If I step into the next room and wash my hands and return, the dogs are keenly aware I’m _right there_ and they don’t act any differently. > [@tumbleddown](#): > > Surely we’re not suggesting that a mother must have her children physically in her presence 24 hours a day if there are animals in the house? That is _exactly_ what the dog trainers I’ve talked to, and the dog-themed discussion boards I’m active on, say. Same goes for a house with window blind cords, fireplaces, anything toxic, a gun, electrical power, stairs, creepy relatives, knives, glass…well, here’s a list of what can harm a child when an adult isn’t present: [http://dictionary.reference.com/](http://dictionary.reference.com/). ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negligent-manslaughter-question-dog-child-story-on-yahoo/542469/46 "2010-06-10T14:26:59Z")
The size of the dog might make a difference in terms of access to the baby: If a baby is in a crib, a toy poodle just can’t get to it, but a doberman might. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negligent-manslaughter-question-dog-child-story-on-yahoo/542469/47 "2010-06-10T15:11:11Z")
Of course, as a 17-yo in Canada, she is tried as a young offender and IIRC the max is 3 years, and her record is sealed after. Still - she made a mistake; probably due to inexperience, as she’s young and these were not her dogs. (Someone else also lived in the house as a boarder). I too fail to see the point of the charges. A non-dog-owner who has never seen the dogs act up against people (assuming), who is young and naive- how would you prove significant negligence? Waht a waste of taxpayers’ money. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negligent-manslaughter-question-dog-child-story-on-yahoo/542469/48 "2010-06-10T15:17:31Z")
From the story I heard on the news about this, they described the inside of the house as being unbelievably horrific - the dogs didn’t kill the baby, they tore it apart, apparently. I also see from [this](http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2010/06/07/mtl-animal-attack-newborn.html)story that the dogs weren’t even the family’s dogs - they belonged to a couple visiting the home. That makes a HUGE difference. The story I heard also mentioned that the young mother was out smoking for 20 or 30 minutes. Regarding pets and babies, we had an eye-opening experience with Jim’s cat - she had never seen a toddler before, and when my friend visited with her toddler, Jim’s cat was going into full “I have to kill this thing” mode when we noticed her and got the kid the hell out of there. That cat would have seriously damaged the toddler if they had been left alone together - my friend didn’t know this cat, and didn’t leave her baby alone with it, which is the proper response for kids around strange animals. It’s up to the humans involved to remember that we have domesticated wild animals and taken them into our homes - they’re still animals, and act like animals. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negligent-manslaughter-question-dog-child-story-on-yahoo/542469/49 "2010-06-10T15:58:46Z")
IIRC from the story, the dogs belonged to someone else also living in the house. (Temporary boarders, was the term I thought I heard). So the animals were not “just visiting”, and it was not unusual for them to be in the house. Of course nobody is going to say “they were growling at the bassinet but we went outside anyway”, but I have trouble imagining any mother leaving a kid alone if there was a hint the animals were misbehaving or uneasy. Something set them off, I guess we’ll never know what. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negligent-manslaughter-question-dog-child-story-on-yahoo/542469/50 "2010-06-10T16:05:18Z")
> [@Joanie](#): > > OK. But leaving a small child or baby alone in a house can forseeably result in the child being injured and/or killed as the result of an earthquake causing the house to collapse on the baby - crushing it to death. Does that make sense? Would it make sense to charge the mother in those circumstances? Absolutely. You aren’t supposed to leave a BABY alone for an extended period of time. I mean, surely you know that babies are supposed to be attended to, and that leaving a baby in a house by itself is dangerous and usually illegal? And surely everyone knows leaving a small child and big dog together alone is the height of idiocy? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negligent-manslaughter-question-dog-child-story-on-yahoo/542469/51 "2010-06-11T14:16:14Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > I am not a lawyer, but I think the prosecutor’s thought process may have been along the lines of: leaving a small child or baby alone with dogs can foreseeably result in the child being injured and/or killed. The mother did nothing to prevent this from happening, and is therefore charged with creating a situation that led to the baby’s death. In Canada, prosecutors don’t decide whether to lay charges - that’s the role of the police. once the police lay the charge, the prosecutor’s role is to determine if there is a reasonable likelihood of conviction, based on the evidence available. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negligent-manslaughter-question-dog-child-story-on-yahoo/542469/52 "2010-06-11T17:25:24Z")
> [@Joanie](#): > > I have to agree with you about cats. > > But then, cats have claws. So do dogs. They can be quite long, quite sharp, and wielded with a great deal of force. I have 2" scars in multiple places on my arms from dog toenails/claws, as do most of my colleagues. And we’re young healthy adults used to being buffeted around. Compared to how thin and delicate baby skin is, we have elephant hide. If a dog can tear _our_ skin badly enough to leave that big a scar with its claws, I guarantee you it can disfigure a baby with them. And no, you never, ever, ever leave a small child alone with an animal. Especially a child so small it can’t even hold up its own damn head. Babies that tiny can’t even really scream all that loud yet, so it’s harder for them to let you know they’re in trouble. Yes, the dogs might have gone after the baby if she was in the next room, though it would be less likely. I mean, my dogs _could_ counter-surf/raid the litterbox/insert misbehavior here while I’m in the next room, but they typically save that sort of thing for when I’m further away and they have a better chance of not getting caught. And on the rare occasions they do try to do such a thing when I’m close by, I hear the tell-tale noises and can get to them in time to minimize the damages. If the mother in question had stepped into the kitchen to make a sandwich, and the dogs _had_ attacked, she would a)have heard the ruckus sooner and b) been much closer to the baby, and thus c) would have reached the baby much sooner and increased the child’s chances of survival by a few orders of magnitude. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negligent-manslaughter-question-dog-child-story-on-yahoo/542469/53 "2010-06-11T17:25:57Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > In Canada, prosecutors don’t decide whether to lay charges - that’s the role of the police. once the police lay the charge, the prosecutor’s role is to determine if there is a reasonable likelihood of conviction, based on the evidence available. Thank you for clarifying that. I had honestly never thought about it before, but it’s good to know! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/negligent-manslaughter-question-dog-child-story-on-yahoo/542469.md?page=2)