# Nelson Mandela has died **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 5, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604 "2013-12-05T21:50:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/61 "2013-12-06T19:00:49Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Looks like “Cold War” had more magic than “Al Qaida”. It was the same thinking that allowed American segregationists in the 1950s and 60s (and in some cases to this day) to call civil rights activists “Communists.” Some of them **were** Communists, after all, and segregation was a stick the USSR used to beat the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/62 "2013-12-06T19:06:30Z")
Hearing the news was sad but no shock - I do appreciate that he at least got to be home for his last few weeks. My first coherent thought, though, was this: They locked him up for 27 years, meaning he had only the other **three-quarters** of his life to accomplish anything. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/63 "2013-12-06T23:05:00Z")
Pat Buchanan’s nativist-paleocon magazine _The American Conservative,_ where I have sometimes seen articles about how life in post-Apartheid SA sucks and even some blacks miss the old days, has [nothing but praise](http://www.theamericanconservative.com/millman/practicing-magnanimity-in-triumph/) for Mandela. > [@](#): > > **Mandela Practiced Magnanimity In Triumph** > > By Noah Millman • December 6, 2013, 12:00 PM > > The tributes to Nelson Mandela are coming thick and fast, as well they should. Rather than add my own to the list, though, I’d like to suggest that we take those commendations to heart. > > Mandela is being praised for two qualities more than anything: his firmness and determination through decades of struggle for justice, and his extraordinary magnanimity in victory. Neither quality is particularly common, and both are highly praiseworthy—but they are particularly extraordinary in combination. > > \ > > But given the scale of the anti-Communist victory, wouldn’t it be more in tune with the moment for conservatives to be magnanimous, and say: you know, it’s entirely understandable why the ANC sought Communist support. Indeed, it’s entirely understandable why many groups fighting oppressive structures and regimes accepted or even sought the support of Soviet-backed groups during the Cold War. What looked like the most important moral question from the perspective of Washington would not have looked like the most important moral question from the perspective of Transkei, or any number of other places. **So maybe, now that the Soviet Union is dead and buried, we should stop harping on ties to Communists as some kind of unforgivable sin, in this case and in general.** Learn, Pubs. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/64 "2013-12-06T23:10:55Z")
Meanwhile, [some Pubs are taking flak just for praising Mandela](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/republicans-who-lost-their-r-card-for-praising-mandela). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/65 "2013-12-07T00:41:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Pat Buchanan’s nativist-paleocon magazine _The American Conservative,_ where I have sometimes seen articles about how life in post-Apartheid SA sucks and even some blacks miss the old days, has [nothing but praise](http://www.theamericanconservative.com/millman/practicing-magnanimity-in-triumph/) for Mandela. I think you meant “nothing but praise for Mandela _now._” I’m pretty sure these people were singing a different tune a couple of decades ago. [Here are some examples, although they don’t include Buchanan specifically.](http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/remembering-religious-rights-attacks-nelson-mandela) > [@](#): > > President Reagan added the ANC to the US terrorism watch list, a designation not removed until 2008, and unsuccessfully vetoed sanctions against the apartheid regime. Many Republican lawmakers did break with the Reagan administration’s stance, but “all 21 [Senate] votes to sustain the veto were cast by Republicans.” > > Mandela faced criticism from Republican leaders including Dick Cheney, who described Mandela’s ANC as a “terrorist organization,” and Jesse Helms, who “turned his back during Mandela’s visit to the U.S. Capitol.” Even in 1998, Eagle Forum founder Phyllis Schlafly lumped Mandela together with notorious dictators. > > The late Jerry Falwell urged [PDF] his supporters to write their congressmen and senators to tell them to oppose sanctions against the apartheid regime. “The liberal media has for too long suppressed the other side of the story in South Africa,” he said. “It is very important that we stay close enough to South Africa so that it does not fall prey to the clutches of Communism.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/66 "2013-12-07T02:29:57Z")
From CNN: [Nelson Mandela death: Examining the backlash.](http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/06/world/africa/nelson-mandela-other-side/) Worth a read. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/67 "2013-12-07T02:33:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Meanwhile, [some Pubs are taking flak just for praising Mandela](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/republicans-who-lost-their-r-card-for-praising-mandela). OK, some of those things I understand, like the labels of him being a Communist and a terrorist (given the ANC designation). But where are these torture and murder accusations coming from? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/68 "2013-12-07T02:54:57Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > But where are these torture and murder accusations coming from? From Bush and Cheney? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/69 "2013-12-07T02:57:03Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > When they founded the Truth and Reconciliation Commission I thought it was the silliest idea I’d ever heard. You’re going to deliver justice by… by having a committee talking about it? Insane. The victims of apartheid would want hangings, and some hanging were called for, quite frankly. But it worked. Mandela was right. Perhaps one of the greatest legacies of the South African transition: the example that “liberation” not only should theoretically, but _can in fact_, be something \*more and other \*than payback and settling of scores. How many other “heroes” and “fathers of the nation” and “revolutionaries” have failed at that, or not even tried. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/70 "2013-12-07T03:19:32Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > OK, some of those things I understand, like the labels of him being a Communist and a terrorist (given the ANC designation). But where are these torture and murder accusations coming from? During the time of the anti-apartheid armed resistance, especially after he was imprisoned, factions arose that went extremely violent against one another and against internal dissenters or challengers, never mind if they thought they detected an actual collaborator: look up “necklacing”. These included factions aligned with members of the ANC leadership: Winnie Mandela herself was found by the Truth and Reconciliation Committee to have been liable for gross violations of human rights against other factions of her very movement in her role as placeholder leader during Mr. Mandela’s imprisonment. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/71 "2013-12-07T03:58:38Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > OK, some of those things I understand, like the labels of him being a Communist and a terrorist (given the ANC designation). But where are these torture and murder accusations coming from? Guilt by association, I suppose. In the latter years of Apartheid, some black factions were given to “necklacing” anyone suspected of supporting the regime. “Necklacing” involved putting a gasoline-soaked tire around the person’s neck and lighting it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/72 "2013-12-07T04:01:45Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > These included factions aligned with members of the ANC leadership: Winnie Mandela herself was found by the Truth and Reconciliation Committee to have been liable for gross violations of human rights against other factions of her very movement in her role as placeholder leader during Mr. Mandela’s imprisonment. Back in the 1980s, I recall, Winnie’s terrorist-crook reputation was a stick to beat Nelson with. But I don’t think it’s fair to hold a man responsible for what his wife got up to while he was in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/73 "2013-12-07T09:54:28Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > These included factions aligned with members of the ANC leadership: Winnie Mandela herself was found by the Truth and Reconciliation Committee to have been liable for gross violations of human rights against other factions of her very movement in her role as placeholder leader during Mr. Mandela’s imprisonment. So what exactly does this mean? Obviously, conservatives see it as “Winnie (and thus Nelson) Mandela ordered, and/or covered up, torture and murder,” but is it really? ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/74 "2013-12-08T11:58:11Z")
Thank you, and rest in peace, Sir, I agree with my president, you are probably the finest person I will share my time on this Earth with. ---
**Author:** ![James\_Toothpaste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e56c9b/32.png) [@James\_Toothpaste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James_Toothpaste)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/75 "2013-12-08T16:46:02Z")
That’s so sad. :(:(☹ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/76 "2013-12-09T23:06:06Z")
The important thing to remember is that what Mandela achieved freed **all** South Africans – the blacks freed from oppression, the whites freed from fear – the fear they had to live with every day the system lasted, imagining what might happen if the black majority ever really got together and rose up. In their worst imaginings it might well have been like Haiti in the 1790s, when rebelling slaves simply killed every white person they could catch. But Mandela (and de Klerk, credit where it’s due) ended Apartheid with no civil war, no ethnic cleansing, no reprisals, no expropriations, no **revenge.** Even white officials guilty of actual crimes against humanity were let off the hook if they made a clean breast at the Truth and Reconciliation Commissions. And now, the worst things South African whites have to fear are a high crime rate and AIDS, which the blacks have to live with too. That’s the power of forgiveness. Mandela understood it. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/77 "2013-12-10T17:49:49Z")
President Obama’s remarks at the memorial service today: [Remarks by President Obama at Memorial Service for Former South African President Nelson Mandela | whitehouse.gov](http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/12/10/remarks-president-obama-memorial-service-former-south-african-president-) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/78 "2013-12-11T14:03:53Z")
And in a bizarre occurrence, [the sign-language interpreter for world leaders was a fake](http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/nelson-mandela-ceremony-sign-language-interpreter-a-fake-1.2459469). [Another story here](http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/sign-language-interpreter-at-nelson-mandelas-memorial-was-a-fake-who-made-up-his-own-hand-gestures-8997189.html). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604/79 "2013-12-11T15:44:53Z")
Holy crap. And he’d done it before! Terrible security and logistical lapse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nelson-mandela-has-died/675604.md?page=3)