# Net neutrality: now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370 "2017-11-22T04:10:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/21 "2017-11-22T17:29:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not particularly concerned about the end of net neutrality. I suspect for most people things will continue on before, largely because aside from following the governments rules, companies have a vested interests in not pissing off their customers, and most of the fear-mongering I’ve heard about net neutrality sounds like things that are going to piss off their customers, so they probably won’t do that. Am I wrong? Some things will piss off some customers and those things might be the exact opposite of things that would piss off a different set of customers. The current issues with the NFL are a good example. Football is just a game, but if AT&T, Verizon, Google, etc. end up that way we would be in for a world of hurt. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/22 "2017-11-22T17:39:35Z")
n/m ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/23 "2017-11-22T17:48:11Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > What surprises me about this is that we haven’t heard anything from banks, who I suspect will be among the earliest targets. > > ISPs will go after the biggest targets first. That means bank transactions. With no rules in place, ISPs are free to charge, say, Wells Fargo and Visa an extra penny for every card scan and verification during a point-of-sale purchase. Millions of transactions a day. And you know that the banks aren’t going to take it in the shorts; they’re going to pass the cost along to Joe Consumer. This is where we’re going to feel it first. And when Visa stops processing transactions for an ISP then what? That’s one of the major things people miss here. Yes, ISPs have power, but they aren’t gods among men. There’s way for other companies to fight back. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/24 "2017-11-22T18:05:46Z")
> [@treis](#): > > That’s one of the major things people miss here. Yes, ISPs have power, but they aren’t gods among men. There’s way for other companies to fight back. This is one of the reasons why I’m not totally convinced this is doomsday for the consumer. Take my TV provider, Dish Network. Every now and then they try to strongarm a cable network into a better deal for Dish, essentially trying to hit AMC/Bravo/Fox News/whatever in the pocketbook in order to have Dish profit more. So what do the content providers do? They run ads on their networks saying, “You won’t see the next episode of Breaking Bad unless you call Dish Network now, demanding to keep us on the air!” And most of the time, a deal is worked out and things are fine. Besides, what am I going to do, actually change my TV provider every few months if I’m unhappy that I missed an episode of Breaking Bad? The idea of taking my business elsewhere is nice in a theoretical sense, but I have better things to spend my time on than scheduling a DirecTV guy to come swap out my dish when I’m mad at my TV company. No, I’m happy to just write an email every once in a while to Dish Network, complaining. And so far, my TV watching has been fine. If Comcast started screwing with Netflix customers, you can bet that Netflix is going to do the same thing that AMC/Bravo/Fox News/whatever does, and gin up their customers to go bother Comcast. I’m not really convinced that Comcast is just going say, “What are you going to do? It’s a two party system! Go ahead and throw your vote away! Hahahahaha!” But I don’t know that for sure either. This could be a really serious policy change, and it might be a huuuuuuge mistake. But I’m just not totally sure it’s going to be the Internet hellscape that the Chicken Littles are making it out to be. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/25 "2017-11-22T19:08:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not particularly concerned about the end of net neutrality. I suspect for most people things will continue on before, largely because aside from following the governments rules, companies have a vested interests in not pissing off their customers, and most of the fear-mongering I’ve heard about net neutrality sounds like things that are going to piss off their customers, so they probably won’t do that. Am I wrong? Have you ever actually gotten service from the cable or phone company before? They piss everyone off. Starting with their customer service, and then their lackluster and barely competent techs, their 4 hour arrival windows, and their kinda crappy service for a pretty high price. They are pretty close to a monopoly in most places, and are a de facto monopoly in about a third. So, pissed off at your ISP? You have two choices. Keep being pissed at your ISP, or don’t have internet. I don’t know what the final consequences of ending net neutrality will be, but I seriously doubt that they will be tempered by ISP’s fears of pissing off their customers. > [@treis](#): > > And when Visa stops processing transactions for an ISP then what? Then I can no longer take Visa cards, and my business suffers for it. Visa loses revenue. The ISP is unaffected. > [@](#): > > That’s one of the major things people miss here. Yes, ISPs have power, but they aren’t gods among men. There’s way for other companies to fight back. There may be, but that is not an example of one that would be effective. If Visa got in a spat with my ISP and stopped processing cards through them, I’d be blaming Visa, not my ISP for the damage being done to my business. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/26 "2017-11-22T19:36:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Then I can no longer take Visa cards, and my business suffers for it. Visa loses revenue. The ISP is unaffected. I meant that Visa stops processing the payments from the ISP’s customers to the ISP. And the ISP is unaffected until you switch to a competitor. Which you will do approximately 3 seconds after finding out that you can no longer process payments for your business. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > There may be, but that is not an example of one that would be effective. If Visa got in a spat with my ISP and stopped processing cards through them, I’d be blaming Visa, not my ISP for the damage being done to my business. Why would you blame Visa for your ISP providing a service that doesn’t meet your needs? The reality is that in these sort of spats customers take the side of the content provider over the transport provider every time. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/27 "2017-11-22T19:53:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Have you ever actually gotten service from the cable or phone company before? They piss everyone off. Starting with their customer service, and then their lackluster and barely competent techs, their 4 hour arrival windows, and their kinda crappy service for a pretty high price. Yes, I cancelled my Comcast subscription several years ago after I got fed up with it and switched to another ISP. The new guys have issues too, but things are better. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/28 "2017-11-22T19:54:41Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I meant that Visa stops processing the payments from the ISP’s customers to the ISP. > > And the ISP is unaffected until you switch to a competitor. Which you will do approximately 3 seconds after finding out that you can no longer process payments for your business. What competitor? I have exactly 2 options for broadband internet, which is one more than a third of the country has. If the cable ISP has decided to start charging for CC payments, then there is no reason why the phone based ISP will not as well. Also, even if I did decide to go through the work and hassle of getting someone out to change my service, it takes more than 3 seconds to change ISPs. 3 days would be pretty damn optimistic. During which time my business is hobbled. I would lose thousands of dollars. This is not some insignificant detail. After all of that, of losing thousands of dollars and dealing with the hassle of breaking contracts and rewiring my building to change ISP’s, what guarantee do I have that the phone company doesn’t turn around and copy the practice of the cable company I just left? > [@](#): > > Why would you blame Visa for your ISP providing a service that doesn’t meet your needs? The reality is that in these sort of spats customers take the side of the content provider over the transport provider every time. I would blame Visa for no longer processing my payments. I already pay them a percentage plus a flat fee for processing. It is not my responsibility to negotiate terms between Visa and my ISP, that’s Visa’s job. I would be aware that the policies of my ISP are part of the reason why, but it is on Visa to settle the matter, not me. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/29 "2017-11-22T20:02:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, I cancelled my Comcast subscription several years ago after I got fed up with it and switched to another ISP. The new guys have issues too, but things are better. How many options do you have? I have exactly 2, which I use one at home, and the other at work. Both suck. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/30 "2017-11-22T20:03:21Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > How many options do you have? I have exactly 2, which I use one at home, and the other at work. Both suck. I don’t know. Several? Is there a fancy website that lists all the options in my area? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/31 "2017-11-22T20:15:51Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If Comcast started screwing with Netflix customers, you can bet that Netflix is going to do the same thing that AMC/Bravo/Fox News/whatever does, and gin up their customers to go bother Comcast. I’m not really convinced that Comcast is just going say, “What are you going to do? It’s a two party system! Go ahead and throw your vote away! Hahahahaha!” > > But I don’t know that for sure either. This could be a really serious policy change, and it might be a huuuuuuge mistake. But I’m just not totally sure it’s going to be the Internet hellscape that the Chicken Littles are making it out to be. It is entirely possible that the Invisible Hand might raise hell and eventually return things to a state of de-facto neutrality, occasionally interrupted by more jerking-around and hellraising. But why go through all that? Can we just have nice things without having to boycott, rabble-rouse, and storm the streets with pitchforks? People who want to give up net neutrality… what is it that you hate about having stable, reliable, transparent pricing for internet service? How is the internet pissing you off right now? Do you really want Comcast to jack up your Netflix prices for no damn reason except they hate competition? I don’t get it. Who do you think is going to win? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/32 "2017-11-22T20:41:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know. Several? Is there a fancy website that lists all the options in my area? Not all that fancy, but there are a couple of websites that you can put in your zip code, and it’ll tell you what is available. [https://www.highspeedinternet.com/](https://www.highspeedinternet.com/) [https://broadbandnow.com/](https://broadbandnow.com/) ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/33 "2017-11-22T20:43:16Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know. Several? Is there a fancy website that lists all the options in my area? Think about this for a moment… isn’t it nice that you don’t need to think much about this? What appeal do you find in a world where you constantly need to monitor your ISP for signs of jacking around with price of Hulu? (I know, you probably don’t use Hulu, just think of some other internet thing you pay for.) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/34 "2017-11-22T21:07:12Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Not all that fancy, but there are a couple of websites that you can put in your zip code, and it’ll tell you what is available. > > [https://www.highspeedinternet.com/](https://www.highspeedinternet.com/) > > [https://broadbandnow.com/](https://broadbandnow.com/) Thanks. According to [broadbandnow.com](http://broadbandnow.com) I have 11 providers in my ZIP code, but four of them have really low coverage in my zip code, so let’s call if 7. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/35 "2017-11-22T21:10:22Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Think about this for a moment… isn’t it nice that you don’t need to think much about this? What appeal do you find in a world where you constantly need to monitor your ISP for signs of jacking around with price of Hulu? (I know, you probably don’t use Hulu, just think of some other internet thing you pay for.) I asked this before, but let me try asking again: my understanding that the change coming is a repeal of some rule that went into effect in 2015. Prior to 2015, I didn’t really expend any effort monitoring my ISP for signs of jacking around with the price of Hulu, so I envision not really spending any time after this rule is repealed. Is something about that wrong? Am I mistaken on fact? Is this rule change actually bigger than repealing some 2015 rule? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/36 "2017-11-22T22:13:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I asked this before, but let me try asking again: my understanding that the change coming is a repeal of some rule that went into effect in 2015. Prior to 2015, I didn’t really expend any effort monitoring my ISP for signs of jacking around with the price of Hulu, so I envision not really spending any time after this rule is repealed. Is something about that wrong? Am I mistaken on fact? Is this rule change actually bigger than repealing some 2015 rule? What you’re missing is that network neutrality violations have been continually on the rise in the broadband era. Historically, net neutrality needed very light regulation, but technological changes in the broadband era made traffic discrimination more lucrative. Companies responded by selectively throttling traffic according to their own interests (notably, Verizon got caught throttling Netflix, Comcast got caught throttling BitTorrent). As a Verizon customer you’d see that Netflix was slower. You’d call Verizon to complain. Verizon would blame Netflix and suggest you could solve the problem by buying a faster internet package. So the violations were happening, and increasing, and that’s the reason for the intervention in 2015. You may have not noticed it, but nerdier consumers were noticing it for you. Should those rules be reversed, we can expect companies to continue the trend of traffic discrimination. And they will no longer need to be coy about it, because this will be an explicit government endorsement of the practice. So that’s why things are different this time around. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/37 "2017-11-23T01:40:20Z")
Since the pro-government crowd is so concerned about monopoly, they will have quite a bit of egg on their face when competition starts to heat up in a year or two and they probably won’t want to talk about it anymore. They’ll move on to the next make-believe grievance. If the bureaucrats bring net neutrality back quickly, we’ll just be stuck with another government regulated cartel with as much innovation as the post office. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/38 "2017-11-23T01:49:21Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > It is entirely possible that the Invisible Hand might raise hell and eventually return things to a state of de-facto neutrality, occasionally interrupted by more jerking-around and hellraising. > > But why go through all that? Can we just have nice things without having to boycott, rabble-rouse, and storm the streets with pitchforks? I go back and forth on the substance of the issue, but I think you’ve made one of the stronger arguments on the net neutrality side. Essentially, the current regulatory scheme is simple, and I’m not sure there’s anything really broken that requires fixing. But… > [@](#): > > People who want to give up net neutrality… what is it that you hate about having stable, reliable, transparent pricing for internet service? I would say a downside of the current scheme is that everyone pays the same per level of service, regardless of usage. I can see the argument that the family that streams Sesame Street four times a week and mostly does email otherwise should pay less than the nerd who is constantly downloading movies and playing Killbot 4000 online games for 48 hours in a row every weekend. I’m not sure that really amounts to a convincing case for changing the net neutrality policy, but I have to say, it sure seems like ISP prices have gone up a lot in the last 5-7 years. I can’t help but wonder how much that has to do with more streaming content driving infrastructure upgrades, which makes me wonder why all users should share those costs equally when the benefits do not seem to be. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/39 "2017-11-23T02:31:08Z")
I don’t see the big deal, until I start to see the big deal. Wait, and see what happens. There’s a _lot_ of self-regulation in a lot of industries. There’s no reason to panic, yet everyone’s panicking. “The sky is falling!” The government needs to get out of internet regulation, but it also needs to dump regs that limit competition. ---
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/40 "2017-11-23T02:45:45Z")
Many people tend to stick with things they are used to, if they start getting charged for something they used to do for free, they may shop elsewhere, if they can’t and the market doesn’t self-regulate, the laws or lackthereof won’t stick. The internet is an essential utility these days, and that starts with going to school, finding jobs, and a huge chunk of the economy from sales. If people are limited by it, it will hurt the profiteers more than help them. The only thing that should remain in place is antitrust and some regulations on price gouging and some stipulations on throttling. Things may work out, if they don’t, it will only wind up hurting greedy companies more than the consumer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370.md?page=3)