# Net neutrality: now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370 "2017-11-22T04:10:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/41 "2017-11-23T03:00:31Z")
I think this will only affect the big bandwidth sites, like Youtube and Netflix and that the small bandwidth sites like Straight Dope won’t be affected. With cord cutting the big bandwidth video sites will start consuming much greater amounts of bandwidth. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/42 "2017-11-23T12:16:10Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I don’t see the big deal, until I start to see the big deal. By which time it will be too late. Keep in mind, you’re not a consumer who watches your traffic shaping. Others do, and saw this becoming a problem prior to 2015. > [@](#): > > The government needs to get out of internet regulation, but it also needs to dump regs that limit competition. Net neutrality is pro-competition. That is the whole point of it. Without regulation, you grant automatic monopoly to whoever owns the wires in the ground. Unless of course we dig a new trench in the ground everybody someone orders Netflix. Honestly, saying that net neutrality is anti-competitive demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of all the issues in play. Before you toss your consumer rights in the trashbin, at least get educated about it. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/43 "2017-11-23T12:28:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I would say a downside of the current scheme is that everyone pays the same per level of service, regardless of usage. Usage caps are legal. They do not violate the spirit of net neutrality as long as they are published and apply equally to every internet service. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/44 "2017-11-23T12:52:50Z")
Wanna know what Internet looks like after the end of net neutrality? Consider what happened to cable and sat-TV after deregulation in the mid-1990s. The tel-coms made many of the same arguments then that they’re making now: we can have more competition, more innovation, blither and blather. Republicans (and some “new” Democrats) stuffed their stockings full of tel-com campaign cash and tried to sell it to the public. And we went from cable with 50-60 channels of stuff we were somewhat interested in watching for about $30-40/month to cable/satellite with 500 channels of mostly crap that we’re not at all interested in watching for $60-100/month (Yes there are specials but they bait you and make you pay for it later). We’re so used to the suckage of cable that we don’t complain about it anymore. That’s what’ll happen with internet. It’ll become worse, but we’ll just pay for it because we’ll forget what it’s like not to pay or not to pay as much. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/45 "2017-11-23T17:33:36Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > By which time it will be too late. Keep in mind, you’re not a consumer who watches your traffic shaping. Others do, and saw this becoming a problem prior to 2015. Why would it be too late? > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Net neutrality is pro-competition. That is the whole point of it. Without regulation, you grant automatic monopoly to whoever owns the wires in the ground. Unless of course we dig a new trench in the ground everybody someone orders Netflix. > > Honestly, saying that net neutrality is anti-competitive demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of all the issues in play. Before you toss your consumer rights in the trashbin, at least get educated about it. If the doomsday scenario comes to pass and these cable companies become wildly profitable, how would that not drive competition? If the ISPs are making money hand over fist then we will see a rush into the market. It’s contradictory to say that a policy will drastically increase the profitability of a market segment while stifling competition. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/46 "2017-11-23T18:50:13Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > And we went from cable with 50-60 channels of stuff we were somewhat interested in watching for about $30-40/month to cable/satellite with 500 channels of mostly crap that we’re not at all interested in watching for $60-100/month (Yes there are specials but they bait you and make you pay for it later). Uh, are you saying TV was better back then? Like, you’d rather watch Dallas on CBS than Breaking Bad on AMC? ---
**Author:** ![Anxious\_Squirrel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anxious_squirrel/32/1083_2.png) [@Anxious\_Squirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anxious_Squirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/47 "2017-11-23T19:09:38Z")
My question is, do you think the ISP’s are gonna demand extortion money from every single website for traffic and speed, or will they only do that to their competitors like Netflix and Amazon? I could see basic cable/internet still allowing access to most text based websites, but only letting you see Fox News and Breitbart or my dad’s personal favorite, True News. But if you want to access any actual news sites you have to subscribe to the HBO premium level. Maybe your ISP provides a free email, but if you want to get your gmail that’s an upgrade, any social media would probably require an upgrade, too. But they’d squeeze Facebook and Twitter to not make that subscription plan too far up the tier. But it would still be extra money that not everyone has got. My biggest worry is whether I’ll still be able to publish my books through amazon’s kindle publishing program. I’m not making enough money yet to buy my own internet so I’ll be stuck with whatever plan my cheakskate parentals order, and if KDP isn’t included in basic or maybe the lowest cable option I’m not going to have it anymore. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/48 "2017-11-23T20:55:25Z")
> [@TheMysteryWriter](#): > > My question is, do you think the ISP’s are gonna demand extortion money from every single website for traffic and speed, or will they only do that to their competitors like Netflix and Amazon? They will be able to shape traffic in whatever way is profitable for them. Obviously direct competitive threats get kneecapped, as we’ve already seen Verizon try with Netflix. But they could price out media threats as well… Breitbart goes after a Comcast affiliate? Welcome to the higher priced “fast breaking raw news package”, for an extra $20 a month. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/49 "2017-11-23T21:06:05Z")
According to [broadbandnow.com](http://broadbandnow.com), I have a whopping TWO internet providers in my neighborhood. I had one (Verizon), but fired them when they became either unable or unwilling to provide reliable service to my house. Now, I use (NewWave) and find that they are expensive and their service is less than stellar. So, just how is the magic hand of free-market capitalism supposed to help me? There is a small, independent company wanting to lay fiber in the area, but they have been unable to get it done for several years. They have run into problems with getting rights to use poles and easements from the city, as well as getting enough capital together to install the hardware. With a very large player and a somewhat large player in the area, I figure the small company is doomed to fail. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/50 "2017-11-23T21:10:03Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Why would it be too late? If it’s reversed and you decide you don’t like it, you don’t just get to ask for backsies. It’s a years-long political process. > [@](#): > > If the doomsday scenario comes to pass and these cable companies become wildly profitable, how would that not drive competition? If the ISPs are making money hand over fist then we will see a rush into the market. It’s contradictory to say that a policy will drastically increase the profitability of a market segment while stifling competition. Not if you understand utility monopolies and barriers to entry. I don’t want a new trench dug in my yard every time a new streaming provider wants to expand into my neighborhood. Does that sound appealing to you? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/51 "2017-11-23T23:16:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, I cancelled my Comcast subscription several years ago after I got fed up with it and switched to another ISP. The new guys have issues too, but things are better. About a third of the country doesn’t have another ISP to choose. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/52 "2017-11-23T23:32:14Z")
Stolen from Reddit: > [@](#): > > Also for anyone who tells you that “Net Neutrality is solving a problem that doesn’t exist”… or anything along those lines: > Here’s a brief history on what the internet companies were doing that triggered Net Neutrality to be put in place: > MADISON RIVER: In 2005, North Carolina ISP Madison River Communications blocked the voice-over-internet protocol (VOIP) service Vonage. Vonage filed a complaint with the FCC after receiving a slew of customer complaints. The FCC stepped in to sanction Madison River and prevent further blocking, but it lacks the authority to stop this kind of abuse today. > COMCAST: In 2005, the nation’s largest ISP, Comcast, began secretly blocking peer-to-peer technologies that its customers were using over its network. Users of services like BitTorrent and Gnutella were unable to connect to these services. 2007 investigations from the Associated Press, the Electronic Frontier Foundation and others confirmed that Comcast was indeed blocking or slowing file-sharing applications without disclosing this fact to its customers. > TELUS: In 2005, Canada’s second-largest telecommunications company, Telus, began blocking access to a server that hosted a website supporting a labor strike against the company. Researchers at Harvard and the University of Toronto found that this action resulted in Telus blocking an additional 766 unrelated sites. > AT&T: From 2007–2009, AT&T forced Apple to block Skype and other competing VOIP phone services on the iPhone. The wireless provider wanted to prevent iPhone users from using any application that would allow them to make calls on such “over-the-top” voice services. The Google Voice app received similar treatment from carriers like AT&T when it came on the scene in 2009. > WINDSTREAM: In 2010, Windstream Communications, a DSL provider with more than 1 million customers at the time, copped to hijacking user-search queries made using the Google toolbar within Firefox. Users who believed they had set the browser to the search engine of their choice were redirected to Windstream’s own search portal and results. > MetroPCS: In 2011, MetroPCS, at the time one of the top-five U.S. wireless carriers, announced plans to block streaming video over its 4G network from all sources except YouTube. MetroPCS then threw its weight behind Verizon’s court challenge against the FCC’s 2010 open internet ruling, hoping that rejection of the agency’s authority would allow the company to continue its anti-consumer practices. > PAXFIRE: In 2011, the Electronic Frontier Foundation found that several small ISPs were redirecting search queries via the vendor Paxfire. The ISPs identified in the initial Electronic Frontier Foundation report included Cavalier, Cogent, Frontier, Fuse, DirecPC, RCN and Wide Open West. Paxfire would intercept a person’s search request at Bing and Yahoo and redirect it to another page. By skipping over the search service’s results, the participating ISPs would collect referral fees for delivering users to select websites. > AT&T, SPRINT and VERIZON: From 2011–2013, AT&T, Sprint and Verizon blocked Google Wallet, a mobile-payment system that competed with a similar service called Isis, which all three companies had a stake in developing. > EUROPE: A 2012 report from the Body of European Regulators for Electronic Communications found that violations of Net Neutrality affected at least one in five users in Europe. The report found that blocked or slowed connections to services like VOIP, peer-to-peer technologies, gaming applications and email were commonplace. > VERIZON: In 2012, the FCC caught Verizon Wireless blocking people from using tethering applications on their phones. Verizon had asked Google to remove 11 free tethering applications from the Android marketplace. These applications allowed users to circumvent Verizon’s $20 tethering fee and turn their smartphones into Wi-Fi hot spots. By blocking those applications, Verizon violated a Net Neutrality pledge it made to the FCC as a condition of the 2008 airwaves auction. > AT&T: In 2012, AT&T announced that it would disable the FaceTime video-calling app on its customers’ iPhones unless they subscribed to a more expensive text-and-voice plan. AT&T had one goal in mind: separating customers from more of their money by blocking alternatives to AT&T’s own products. > VERIZON: During oral arguments in Verizon v. FCC in 2013, judges asked whether the phone giant would favor some preferred services, content or sites over others if the court overruled the agency’s existing open internet rules. Verizon counsel Helgi Walker had this to say: “I’m authorized to state from my client today that but for these rules we would be exploring those types of arrangements.” Walker’s admission might have gone unnoticed had she not repeated it on at least five separate occasions during arguments. > Source has links to each case where you can read the legal documents about it: [Net Neutrality Violations: A History of Abuse | Free Press](https://www.freepress.net/blog/2017/04/25/net-neutrality-violations-brief-history) ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/53 "2017-11-24T00:11:56Z")
If it’s reversed and you decide you don’t like it, you don’t just get to ask for backsies. It’s a years-long political process. [/Quote] Even if we assume it’s a years long process that’s miles away from it being too late. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Not if you understand utility monopolies and barriers to entry. I don’t want a new trench dug in my yard every time a new streaming provider wants to expand into my neighborhood. Does that sound appealing to you? So do you want competition in ISPs or not? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2017, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/54 "2017-11-24T02:43:24Z")
> [@treis](#): > > So do you want competition in ISPs or not? Yes, of course. I want ISP’s to compete with other ISP’s, based on their ability to provide the best performance for all internet traffic. That’s what net neutrality is all about. What I don’t want is for ISP’s to pick winners and losers among non-ISP streaming services based on their own commercial interests. Do you want anti-competitive practices? Because that’s how you get anti-competitive practices. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/55 "2017-11-24T20:39:32Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Yes, of course. I want ISP’s to compete with other ISP’s, based on their ability to provide the best performance for all internet traffic. That’s what net neutrality is all about. This is effectively the same as saying “I want limited competition in ISPs”. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > What I don’t want is for ISP’s to pick winners and losers among non-ISP streaming services based on their own commercial interests. Do you want anti-competitive practices? Because that’s how you get anti-competitive practices. I think you need to decide what you’re position is here and what you want. Because in this thread you’ve said: (1) No regulation will lead to monopolistic and anti-competitive ISP behavior (which is bad) (2) No regulation will lead to your lawn being dug up for every new streaming service (which is also bad) Do you want competition in ISPs or don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/56 "2017-11-24T20:59:59Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This is effectively the same as saying “I want limited competition in ISPs”. You might wish it’s the same, but it’s not. I want ISP’s to be entirely competitive within the market of providing access to the internet, distinct and separate from the internet content market. If you think this is anticompetitive, you are betraying ignorance of the services involved and their competitive interaction. Please come back when you’ve educated yourself on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/57 "2017-11-24T21:10:57Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > You might wish it’s the same, but it’s not. I want ISP’s to be entirely competitive within the market of providing access to the internet, distinct and separate from the internet content market. > > If you think this is anticompetitive, you are betraying ignorance of the services involved and their competitive interaction. Please come back when you’ve educated yourself on the subject. In other words, “I’m going to continue to ignore my contradictory positions and, on top of that, insult you.” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/58 "2017-11-24T21:18:01Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > About a third of the country doesn’t have another ISP to choose. I think there’s a fair bit of parsing of that statement that you’re leaving out, but maybe I’m wrong. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/59 "2017-11-24T21:57:23Z")
> [@treis](#): > > (2) No regulation will lead to your lawn being dug up for every new streaming service (which is also bad) No regulation _would_ lead to his lawn being dug up for every new ISP (not streaming service), if there were perfect competition in the market for service provision. This is not the case. Any potential new entry faces humongous sunk costs and resistance from wealthier, entrenched ISPs. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/60 "2017-11-24T22:07:24Z")
Could someone explain the specific benefit of repealing net neutrality? So far, the only “pluses” I’ve heard has been “something something regulation bad competition”. How, precisely, is repealing neutrality going to make it easier (or even possible) for competition to flourish? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370.md?page=4)