# Net neutrality: now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370 "2017-11-22T04:10:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![RickG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rickg/32/5174_2.png) [@RickG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickG)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/141 "2017-11-28T22:44:32Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If I don’t have a Kenmore now, nothing changes for me. I just don’t get the subsidy that Kenmore is providing their clients. If the Kenmore offer is attractive enough for me, I might go out and buy new appliances. > > I don’t see why any of this is a problem. When you and a bunch of other people switch to Kenmore, it puts the other appliance makers out of business, at which point Kenmore can jack up their prices. Remember that in the hypothetical, Kenmore _also_ provides the electricity. If there were lots of other electricity providers, you might have a point. But, typically, there aren’t. Nowhere in your arguments so far have I seen you address monopoly power. Do you recognize that it exists? Is it a problem? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/142 "2017-11-28T23:04:07Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If the power company randomly decides to double everyone rates then of course they are worse off. Kenmore then subsidizing their customers a $1 doesn’t harm anyone. The trouble is that the former model is what is expected if ISPs exercise their new “right” to charge extra for people they may be in competition with. No one complains when AT&T offers a sale, or discount, or bonus. But when they jack up prices in a targeted fashion, that seems like a bad thing to most of us. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/143 "2017-11-28T23:13:54Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > What if Amazon charged you more for shipping if you bought a Craftsmen tool then if you bought a Black and Decker tool. Would you be happy with that? Why would they? Craftsman and Black and Decker are the same company. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/144 "2017-11-28T23:14:19Z")
> [@RickG](#): > > When you and a bunch of other people switch to Kenmore, it puts the other appliance makers out of business, at which point Kenmore can jack up their prices. Remember that in the hypothetical, Kenmore _also_ provides the electricity. If there were lots of other electricity providers, you might have a point. But, typically, there aren’t. You’re changing the scenario, again. But it’s still not a problem to me. Schemes like this hardly ever work. The companies spend billions acquiring market share and then when they try to raise the prices again competitors spring up. The net result is that consumers are subsidized for years on money a company will never make back. > [@RickG](#): > > Nowhere in your arguments so far have I seen you address monopoly power. Do you recognize that it exists? Is it a problem? Monopoly power is an issue, but ISPs are clearly not a monopoly. Even if we restrict it to broadband, they still are almost always at least a duopoly and often there are three or more companies. Even if we ignore that, there’s a clear floor to how monopolistic broadband operators can act and that is “no worse than wireless service”. And even if we continue to ignore that, Google demonstrated that with sufficient motivation that they are willing and able to be an ISP. So the other floor is “not bad enough to piss Google off”. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/145 "2017-11-28T23:30:31Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If the power company randomly decides to double everyone rates then of course they are worse off. Kenmore then subsidizing their customers a $1 doesn’t harm anyone. Kenmore owns the power company, and they’re not subsidizing jack. They’re simply raising the price on all their power customers who have the temerity to dare not also be their appliance customers. The goal here is to use their power monopoly to run their appliance competitors out of business. Another possible approach would be to throttle the power to non-Kenmore appliances, making them function like crap. This will drive customers away from the ‘broken’ appliances to the Kenmore appliances just as effectively without it being as obvious that Kenmore is responsible. Really, the situation is analogous to if all the various roads in the country were owned by private companies, and there were currently laws in place preventing the road-owners from coming out and robbing or attacking anyone who dared use their road. Laws which you’re trying to repeal, on the grounds of “laws are bad and anarchy and corruption are good, and also there are lots of roads leading to MY neighborhood and I’m sure that not ALL of them will use their newfound freedom to rob people, and in any case if there are any problems more non-robbing roads will spring up like magic because roads are super-profitable now that their owners can rob people.” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/146 "2017-11-28T23:30:38Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If the power company randomly decides to double everyone rates then of course they are worse off. Kenmore then subsidizing their customers a $1 doesn’t harm anyone. Do you know why the power company cannot randomly decide to double everyone’s rates? ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/147 "2017-11-28T23:35:09Z")
So…you can leave net neutrality in place, and avoid all that. Or you can repeal, and trust that the ISPs won’t take undue advantage. BUT, if they do, some new technology MIGHT come about to replace them. Or, some other company might move in and lose money…out of the goodness of their hearts, I suppose. How about we just leave it as is. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/148 "2017-11-28T23:42:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do you know why the power company cannot randomly decide to double everyone’s rates? Not for the same reason ISPs can’t randomly decide to double their rates, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/149 "2017-11-28T23:53:22Z")
Honestly I think that if ISPs are given the freedom to screw with the content they’re being asked to deliver (which, to be honest, is all that is happening when you disable net neutrality) that they won’t leap straight to charging end-of-line consumers higher prices. That would drive some small percentage of customers away. Instead they’d fuck up the content they’re supposed to deliver (except for their own content), and then generously offer the other content providers an opportunity to bribe them into stopping the fucking. Or they won’t, if the provider is their direct competitor in some other sphere, or if they simply hate them on principle. This will all go on without the average consumer being aware of anything, give or take that **treis** won’t be able to get decent quality streaming video anymore and his email won’t work. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/150 "2017-11-28T23:58:57Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Honestly I think that if ISPs are given the freedom to screw with the content they’re being asked to deliver (which, to be honest, is all that is happening when you disable net neutrality) that they won’t leap straight to charging end-of-line consumers higher prices. That would drive some small percentage of customers away. Instead they’d fuck up the content they’re supposed to deliver (except for their own content), and then generously offer the other content providers an opportunity to bribe them into stopping the fucking. Or they won’t, if the provider is their direct competitor in some other sphere, or if they simply hate them on principle. This will all go on without the average consumer being aware of anything, give or take that **treis** won’t be able to get decent quality streaming video anymore and his email won’t work. If I can’t get decent quality streaming or my e-mail why exactly am I still paying Comcast any money? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/151 "2017-11-29T00:00:54Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Not for the same reason ISPs can’t randomly decide to double their rates, that’s for sure. It doesn’t have anything to do with them being regulated industries? Tell me, would you be against deregulation of electrical rates as well? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/152 "2017-11-29T00:07:39Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Several companies have looked into tethered balloon systems, for instance, and there are other wireless systems that are available for backhaul today and will be even more so in the future. Poof! A wizard appears and fills the sky with fucking balloons to solve a completely artificial problem. But as absurd as it is, nobody in this thread has offered any better rationale abolishing net neutrality, so congratulations. Here’s a balloon. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/153 "2017-11-29T00:08:53Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If I can’t get decent quality streaming or my e-mail why exactly am I still paying Comcast any money? Excellent question! Perhaps you’ll switch to, oh, let’s say Joe’s Honest Internet Service. Who promises they won’t screw with your internet, though they totally can. But they won’t! Honest. Corporation’s honor. And then they do anyway, just not _quiiiite_ as bad as Comcast does. But you’re savvy, and haven’t (yet) been acclimatized to the new crappy norm, so you switch to Fred’s Even More Honest Internet Service, Trust Us. They’re worse than Comcast. So you do what you would actually have done from the start and look around at reviews for the most honest/fast service. Turns out it’s Joe’s. You decide that the free market is a powerful force, and will cause a new ISP to magically appear and serve your will. You rub a lamp, click your heels together, and then cancel all your ISP services because you know the new one will spring up. In your suddenly copious free time you discover a love of reading, and become a fixture at the local library. You read many many books. A happy ending! ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/154 "2017-11-29T00:13:35Z")
> [@treis](#): > > And even if we continue to ignore that, Google demonstrated that with sufficient motivation that they are willing and able to be an ISP. So the other floor is “not bad enough to piss Google off”. [Google Fiber is a failure](https://www.techrepublic.com/article/why-google-fiber-failed-5-reasons/), and [was doomed from the start.](https://www.wired.com/2017/03/google-fiber-was-doomed-from-the-start/) . Try again. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/155 "2017-11-29T00:26:49Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Excellent question! Perhaps you’ll switch to, oh, let’s say Joe’s Honest Internet Service. Who promises they won’t screw with your internet, though they totally can. But they won’t! Honest. Corporation’s honor. > > And then they do anyway, just not _quiiiite_ as bad as Comcast does. > > But you’re savvy, and haven’t (yet) been acclimatized to the new crappy norm, so you switch to Fred’s Even More Honest Internet Service, Trust Us. > > They’re worse than Comcast. > > So you do what you would actually have done from the start and look around at reviews for the most honest/fast service. Turns out it’s Joe’s. > > You decide that the free market is a powerful force, and will cause a new ISP to magically appear and serve your will. You rub a lamp, click your heels together, and then cancel all your ISP services because you know the new one will spring up. > > In your suddenly copious free time you discover a love of reading, and become a fixture at the local library. You read many many books. A happy ending! If I read this right, you’re saying that if we get rid of NN the internet will become so crappy that we all just give up on in and read books? That doesn’t strike me as a… shall we say particularly cogent argument. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > [Google Fiber is a failure](https://www.techrepublic.com/article/why-google-fiber-failed-5-reasons/), and [was doomed from the start.](https://www.wired.com/2017/03/google-fiber-was-doomed-from-the-start/) . Try again. Feel free to address my actual point whenever you would like. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/156 "2017-11-29T00:38:58Z")
**treis** , could you at some point address my questions? What, precisely, is the advantage in overturning net neutralty for the consumer? Is there any rational argument for upsetting the status quo? “Oook, ook, regulation bad,” is not a rational argument. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/157 "2017-11-29T00:44:29Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If I read this right, you’re saying that if we get rid of NN the internet will become so crappy that we all just give up on in and read books? That doesn’t strike me as a… shall we say particularly cogent argument. Are you dissing books? :mad: What’ll actually happen is that the internet will become so crappy that _some_ people (the “If I can’t get decent quality streaming or my e-mail why exactly am I still paying Comcast any money?” types) will get so pissed they’ll go full medieval. But the vast, vast majority will recognize that the collective of ISPs has them by the nuts and they have no recourse - well, okay, some people will beg for net neutrality to be reinstated, but your type will have no choice but to suck it up and say “please sir, can I have some more?” There are only three arguments I can see for believing that companies will not take advantage of their newfound powers to screw people for money: 1. That corporations are inherently moral. 2. That other honest companies will spring up - as in, make the investment of digging ditches and laying thousands of miles cable or fiber over the objections of the existing carriers and their bought politicians and other regulatory hurdles. That is, startup companies will do the thing that Google was unable to do. 3. They believe that while massive numbers of people WILL be screwed over, that circumstances or luck will conspire that THEY PERSONALLY won’t be screwed over, and fuck all those other people and businesses and the economy and the country. The first two arguments seem delusional to me, and if you watch streaming video then honestly so does the third one - streaming video is an easy, easy target for throttling and shenanigans. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/158 "2017-11-29T00:44:41Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why would they? Craftsman and Black and Decker are the same company. come on man, pretend they aren’t for the purposes of discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/159 "2017-11-29T00:47:32Z")
I just thought of a good business plan for after NN is gone: 1. Start up a broadband Internet company 2. Easily get cable/fiber to all customers of Comcast 3. Advertise how much better you are than Comcast, and that you don’t throttle connections to any sites 4. Get a bunch of subscribers 5. Take a bunch of money from Comcast to throttle Netflix and speed up access to Xfinity on Demand 6. Retire! ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370/160 "2017-11-29T00:51:42Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > 1. Easily get cable/fiber to all customers of Comcast Remember not to mess up the ‘easily’ part of this. Fumbling that could really jack up your whole plan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/net-neutrality-now-what/802370.md?page=9)