# Neurosurgeon: Near Death Experience
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 9, 2012, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182 "2012-10-09T06:48:09Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Naive\_Evian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naive_Evian)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2012, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/1 "2012-10-09T06:48:09Z")
This guy’s story does not seem to add up to me. He claims there was no activity in his cortex. Is that possible if his cortex recovered? Wouldn’t it have to be getting oxygen the whole time or it would die off very fast? Also his cortex would have had to have activity right to stopped (obvisiously), and presumably the activity restarted before or as he woke up up. Couldn’t the NDE have during those times? Also, isn’t possible that his cortex was functioning as a level that too low to measure?
And if he had an actual spiritual experience, how can he remember it if it wasn’t processed through his cortex and higher brain? How was he able to form memories and process this experience, if the parts of his body necessary for these things to happen were not functioning at all? Even if there is some non-physical part of his existence, doesn’t he need the cortex and higher brain functions to be functioning for him to create memories of his spiritual adventure? What mechanism could have allowed his spiritual experience to impact parts of his brain that were not functining?
[http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/07/proof-of-heaven-a-doctor-s-experience-with-the-afterlife.html](http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/07/proof-of-heaven-a-doctor-s-experience-with-the-afterlife.html)
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2012, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/2 "2012-10-09T06:59:10Z")
The usual argument (which I will try to present here, but will not argue in support of) is that the brain is not the true seat of thought, consciousness and personality, but is more like a radio transciever, communicating with the immaterial soul/spirit - and therefore the person is able to experience things either via the brain and body (the normal configuration) or, in cases where the brain is incapacitated, the soul/spirit can have direct experiences of its own.
Thus, the experiences the immaterial essence had during an NDE are already part of the person’s experience and don’t require any integration into the brain.
As I said, I’m not going to try to support this argument, because I don’t believe it holds water when considered in the light of things like mental handicap and personality change as a result of brain injury, etc.
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### Author:  [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2012, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/3 "2012-10-09T07:01:43Z")
I actually did stop breathing for several minutes and turned blue and had CPR done and was resuscitated in hospital. No light, it was basically like falling asleep and waking up.
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### Author:  [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/4 "2012-10-10T02:45:34Z")
From the end of the article:
Dr. Eben Alexander has been a neurosurgeon for the past 25 years. **His book, Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon’s Journey into the Afterlife, will be published by Simon & Schuster on Oct. 23, 2012.**
A book release is always the first thing I look for in such stories.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/5 "2012-10-10T03:17:16Z")
> [@Naive\_Evian](#):
>
> Also his cortex would have had to have activity right to stopped (obvisiously), and presumably the activity restarted before or as he woke up up. Couldn’t the NDE have during those times?
Sure. False memories aren’t all that rare, especially under physical stress like this.
Really; even assuming complete honesty on his part, this is one of the worst possible situations under which to take eyewitness testimony seriously short of someone being high on hallucinogens. His brain _was not working properly_.
> [@grude](#):
>
> I actually did stop breathing for several minutes and turned blue and had CPR done and was resuscitated in hospital. No light, it was basically like falling asleep and waking up.
Yes; people near death have different experiences, or none at all; supporters of NDE = mystic experiences cherry pick until they get something properly mystic and dramatic. Nothing happens? Don’t care. Guy floats through a tunnel made of TV sets and meets Bugs Bunny? Pretend it didn’t happen. Float through a glowing tunnel and meet God/your dead relatives/see Heaven or Hell? Obvious proof of the soul and the afterlife!
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### Author:  [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/6 "2012-10-10T05:37:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> . . . Guy floats through a tunnel made of TV sets and meets Bugs Bunny? . . .
“What’s up, doc?” It makes a really horrible kind of sense.
Where do we go when we die? Acme Acres…
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/7 "2012-10-11T01:51:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#):
>
> “What’s up, doc?” It makes a really horrible kind of sense.
>
> Where do we go when we die? Acme Acres…
The universe being an Acme product would explain a _lot_, actually…
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### Author:  [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)
#### Post date: [October 12, 2012, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/8 "2012-10-12T12:33:50Z")
> [@Trinopus](#):
>
> “What’s up, doc?” It makes a really horrible kind of sense.
>
> Where do we go when we die? Acme Acres…
It could be that we just become part of the universe as the atoms we are made up of, before we were born, just as even an animal, or plant’s atoms are changed back to the atoms they were. Humans like the idea of living on in some wonderful place with eternal joy. But if that were the case then why would so many angels who were said to rebel? Could it have been that heaven wasn’t such a good place?
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [October 12, 2012, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/9 "2012-10-12T12:59:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> The universe being an Acme product would explain a _lot_, actually…
So now I’m thinking of the cartoon “Duck Amuck”…
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [October 12, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/10 "2012-10-12T13:03:48Z")
> [@Naive\_Evian](#):
>
> This guy’s story does not seem to add up to me. He claims there was no activity in his cortex.
There’s still not a whole lot.
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### Author:  [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)
#### Post date: [October 12, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/11 "2012-10-12T13:45:11Z")
> [@Mangetout](#):
>
> The usual argument (which I will try to present here, but will not argue in support of) is that the brain is not the true seat of thought, consciousness and personality, but is more like a radio transciever, communicating with the immaterial soul/spirit - and therefore the person is able to experience things either via the brain and body (the normal configuration) or, in cases where the brain is incapacitated, the soul/spirit can have direct experiences of its own.
>
> Thus, the experiences the immaterial essence had during an NDE are already part of the person’s experience and don’t require any integration into the brain.
>
> As I said, I’m not going to try to support this argument, because I don’t believe it holds water when considered in the light of things like mental handicap and personality change as a result of brain injury, etc.
I feel like I can add a bit to clarify this general argument, particularly the latter part. It isn’t much of a strain on the analogy to imagine how brain damage could result in change of personality and handicap; afterall, a damaged antenna very well may get a fuzzy signal. Beyond that, there’s clearly going to be different parts of what composes a person’s personality, some would be entirely spiritual aspects, some entirely physical aspects. That is, physical instincts and senses provide some feedback and influence and the resulting personality would be an amalgamation.
Further, I think part of the idea behind why this stuff isn’t more readily accessible would be more analagous to a two-way mirror. Typical experience and physical sensation will tend to thoroughly overwhelm the other experience, much like how the lit side of that mirror doesn’t see through. However, by quieting that, through a practice like prayer or meditation, or incidentally through near death, one may see glimpses of it. And, as for the different results, it very well might all depend on how it gets interpretted by the brain and all of that, if it even makes it that far.
But even if there is some truth in all of that, and there is something beyond that the physical plane of existence, it’s impossible to tell which of these stories are legit and which ones are just part of an agenda, and how various people’s beliefs going into or coming out of the experience might flavor their perspective, so by it’s very nature, there’s no way to scientifically analyze or verify/falsify any of the experiences. So, as far as this sort of story goes, I have more trouble believing it since I can’t see any really result other than selling books or confirming for people who already believed something similar.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [October 12, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/12 "2012-10-12T14:14:18Z")
How is it determined exactly when an NDE occurs?
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### Author:  [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/13 "2012-10-13T12:28:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> How is it determined exactly when an NDE occurs?
I notice the word “NEAR” death, so there would not be a real (complete) death. I was told that if a person fasts too much, has a brain injury etc. the Brain acts accordingly. An Alcholic can see bugs ,rats etc. A person who is using religion to escape a hard problem in their life, can also have visions, but they come from inside the person’s brain,not out side it.
They would not be brain dead,if they were, they wouldn’t remember anything.
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### Author:  [@M.Wilkinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/M.Wilkinson)
#### Post date: [January 17, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/14 "2013-01-17T23:06:54Z")
This is where it’s important to understand what makes up a human being. If you believe that the body is all there is then yeah it would be hard to conceive how spiritual experiences can happen. But for me, it makes sense to believe in the soul. From what I believe, the soul is attached to the body by a kind of umbilical chord. When you go to sleep, the soul can wander around. I read this guy’s story and I found it quite interesting. The point is that soul part of humans is less limited than the physical body.
I want to make the point that the neurosurgeon basically says he had no cortex activity: so his experience while “unconscious” was not a product of his physical brain. But when he wakes up, the experiences he has had can feed to his conscious brain, where he can process them. He says himself that because of how limited his brain is compared to that spiritual state he was in, his processing of his experience is slow.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [January 17, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/15 "2013-01-17T23:10:32Z")
> [@M.Wilkinson](#):
>
> But for me, it makes sense to believe in the soul.
But that’s a baseless assertion that contradicts everything we know, however much you like the idea. There’s simply no rational reason to think it’s even possible, much less true.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [January 17, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/16 "2013-01-17T23:14:24Z")
> [@M.Wilkinson](#):
>
> If you believe that the body is all there is then yeah it would be hard to conceive how spiritual experiences can happen.
No, it isn’t. These experiences are caused by the brain.
> [@](#):
>
> I want to make the point that the neurosurgeon basically says he had no cortex activity: so his experience while “unconscious” was not a product of his physical brain.
There’s more to your brain than the cortex, though.
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### Author:  [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)
#### Post date: [January 18, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/17 "2013-01-18T03:37:33Z")
> [@M.Wilkinson](#):
>
> . . . But for me, it makes sense to believe in the soul. From what I believe, the soul is attached to the body by a kind of umbilical chord. . . .
What kills this, for me, is: how is the umbilical cord anchored to the body? Is there a physical structure – Descartes’ pineal gland? – where the silver cord is tethered? What happens if that part of the body is damaged? If I cut it out surgically, am I not removing you from your soul?
(I wrote a story in which someone invents a “soul gun” that knocks the soul right out of the body. You shoot it at a person, and they suffer immediate spiritual damnation. Not a pretty way to go!)
It’s cleaner to say “the soul hovers near the body” or that “the soul bathes the body in a spiritual aura.” These propositions, in making no actual physical claims about physical reality, are immune from critical examination.
(Now, to my mind, this also makes them superlatively uninteresting!)
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### Author:  [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)
#### Post date: [January 18, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/18 "2013-01-18T05:16:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> But that’s a baseless assertion that contradicts everything we know, however much you like the idea. There’s simply no rational reason to think it’s even possible, much less true.
That’s funny, because I believe 100% in the soul, based on a lifetime of evidence that’s been presented before me. It’s not something you can learn in a book, and it’s not a matter of blind religious faith, either. Can’t explain why so many skeptics assume the soul can’t exist only because science hasn’t proven its existence, but maybe these people just haven’t stumbled across any extraordinary evidence yet.
As for NDE’s, I’m not so certain. It does make logical sense that such universal experiences (the “white light”, seeing your dead family members, etc.) are most likely a result of chemistry, specifically the overflow of endorphins that the brain releases when death appears imminent. (How that particular trait evolved, I have no idea…but I’m sure there’s a sensible reason for it.) I can also understand how such a powerful experience could override people’s logic and make them believe that there is such a thing as life after death, and hey, maybe they’re on to something. But I wouldn’t go around demanding people believe me (esp. the soul thing I talked about earlier) because when it comes to matters of faith, too many people make it the foundation of their existence, whereas for me it’s just a passing, fanciful notion.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [January 18, 2013, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/19 "2013-01-18T06:41:30Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#):
>
> That’s funny, because I believe 100% in the soul, based on a lifetime of evidence that’s been presented before me. It’s not something you can learn in a book, and it’s not a matter of blind religious faith, either. Can’t explain why so many skeptics assume the soul can’t exist only because science hasn’t proven its existence, but maybe these people just haven’t stumbled across any extraordinary evidence yet.
What evidence? Cite, please.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [January 18, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neurosurgeon-near-death-experience/637182/20 "2013-01-18T14:38:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> The universe being an Acme product would explain a _lot_, actually…
It would certainly explain why it always seems like it’s blowing up in my face!
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#):
>
> So now I’m thinking of the cartoon “Duck Amuck”…
Me too, now. A classic, and totally apropos!