# Neutrinos and black holes **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 24, 2000, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519 "2000-01-24T00:15:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/201 "2012-10-11T02:52:24Z")
> [@Gin\_Bell](#): > > Surely people like Duff writing an odd 3-page rant about Garrett Lisi’s work and the attention it has gotten, should be trusted. Lisi’s work has just about nothing to do with string theory. :rolleyes: I was quoting your link. If you don’t like that one, let’s try a different footnote in which [the Distler mentioned by Duff takes Lisi apart](http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2008/05/e8_quillen_superconnection.html#c016877). In any case, the point is that science is not something that is done by one individual mind. It’s a consensus art. Hundreds, thousands, of alternatives and competitors have been introduced to everyone from Einstein on, but the Standard Model still rules and still depends on the consensus rather than the competitors. Lisi may be a serious scientist, with the good scientist’s objective of uncovering deeper understanding of mathematical reality, but his notions are not part of that consensus because they apparently have serious flaws at a level way beyond either of our knowledge. Why does Lisi appeal to you? Because he’s challenging the consensus? That’s a so what? Every scientist trying to make a name tries that. Does E8 Theory overturn the Standard Model? No, it purports to explain it. Is it a finished theory? no, by his own admission, “the theory is not complete and cannot be considered much more than a speculative proposal. Without fully describing how the three generations of fermions work, the theory and all predictions from it remain tenuous.” If he works out all the flaws and it becomes accepted, what then? Will it change anything that has been discussed in this thread? Does it have any impact on philosophy or consciousness or anything else? Isn’t it just a different example of exactly the same set of advanced math that people garble and burble about on the internet without understanding? Why even bring it up? That’s a serious question, BTW. I honestly don’t understand your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/202 "2012-10-11T04:09:37Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I was quoting your link. If you don’t like that one, let’s try a different footnote in which [the Distler mentioned by Duff takes Lisi apart](http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2008/05/e8_quillen_superconnection.html#c016877). That pretty much killed all the fun :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/203 "2012-10-11T04:16:00Z")
> [@Bremidon](#): > > Yes, I think this is fair. We try to keep the assumptions as few as possible, as simple as possible, as _obvious_ as possible, but at the end of it all, they are still assumptions. The more we can derive from those assumptions, the more confidence we have in their usefulness. And science gives us ways to change our assumptions, namely the idea that hypotheses can be rejected based on the statistics going against them. This stands in stark contrast to _belief systems_, where some assumptions cannot be changed at any point regardless of the evidence. If you use the word ‘belief’ in a different way, I can only say you’re obscuring a very important point and I wonder, based on prior experience, whether you’re obscuring that point deliberately. ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/204 "2012-10-11T04:19:50Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Why even bring it up? That’s a serious question, BTW. I honestly don’t understand your reasoning. Alternatively it would be nice to hear what people think about [painting elephants](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk). 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/205 "2012-10-11T05:28:25Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > And science gives us ways to change our assumptions, namely the idea that hypotheses can be rejected based on the statistics going against them. If it wasn’t for reality, what would the likelyhood be of anything being here at all 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/206 "2012-10-12T00:44:50Z")
I mean, the universe seems to be ‘fine-tuned’ to make life possible. Take physics; ultimately, all laws are founded upon ‘physical constants’ eg. gravity, strong force, weak force, and the electromagnetic force. Why do these fundamental presets all have the values they have? Why aren’t they a little bigger or smaller? I think it’s very odd that the fundamental constants have exactly the right values to make atoms, stars, planets and everything else around us possible. Does that sound paranoid? ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/207 "2012-10-12T01:25:49Z")
Lots of thought has gone into that question. Standard answers are: [ol] [li]Incomplete knowledge, we just don’t now enough yet to know how the constants come about or are related.[/li][li]Creator God, [/li][li]Strong Anthropic principle, which is not a lot better than a creator god,[/li][li]Weak Anthropic principle, which is the preferred one for most scientists[/li][li]Lack of imagination.[/li][/ol] The last one is simply that we don’t actually know what would happen if the constants did change. We know that the universe would be very different, and that ordinary matter as we understand it (atoms for instance) might not work. But we can’t say that the universe would not be in some sense “interesting” but in a vastly different manner. The time for things to happen might be vastly different, the scales that they happen on might be vastly different, but to say that the universe would be a barren waste is probably not reasonable. It is likely that complex relationships would still exist between the components, and the scope for utterly weird complex things to arise remain. ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/208 "2012-10-12T01:44:13Z")
I am starting to feel like reality is a dream state and I am actually a brain-in-a-vat. Do you think that is a psychological disorder, since nothing can really prove this invalid? ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/209 "2012-10-12T01:57:23Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > …but to say that the universe would be a barren waste is probably not reasonable. I think you will agree that there is only a very narrow range thought to be compatible with life. The more I understand science, the less probable the possibility of life becomes. Maybe we should all repent and talk to God. ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/210 "2012-10-12T02:12:52Z")
But then again, I often have the feeling that the universe appears to fit us perfectly, while in fact we simply fit the universe perfectly. One is not the same as the other. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/211 "2012-10-12T04:03:18Z")
> [@Gin\_Bell](#): > > But then again, I often have the feeling that the universe appears to fit us perfectly, while in fact we simply fit the universe perfectly. One is not the same as the other. You are noticing the difference between the strong and weak anthropic principles here. It is a critical thing to note, and many people miss it. ---
**Author:** ![AaronX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@AaronX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AaronX)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/212 "2012-10-12T12:06:36Z")
Since general relativity says gravity can be interpreted as acceleration, is there anything that isn’t affected by gravity? I mean, if you fire a massless spinless chargeless particle in a vacuum in an accelerating lift, how can the particle accelerate with the lift? It’ll continue on its original path and so be affected by gravity, right? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/213 "2012-10-12T12:18:24Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > Since general relativity says gravity can be interpreted as acceleration, is there anything that isn’t affected by gravity? I mean, if you fire a massless spinless chargeless particle in a vacuum in an accelerating lift, how can the particle accelerate with the lift? It’ll continue on its original path and so be affected by gravity, right? Right. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/214 "2012-10-12T17:28:00Z")
> [@Gin\_Bell](#): > > I think you will agree that there is only a very narrow range thought to be compatible with life. The more I understand science, the less probable the possibility of life becomes. Maybe we should all repent and talk to God. This is like saying the hole was created for the puddle because the puddle fits perfectly into the hole. ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/215 "2012-10-12T18:09:34Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > This is like saying the hole was created for the puddle because the puddle fits perfectly into the hole. No, it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/216 "2012-10-12T18:23:23Z")
> [@Gin\_Bell](#): > > No, it’s not. Is that a “My pastor says so” “No, it’s not” or an “I’m out of arguments” “No, it’s not”? ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/217 "2012-10-12T18:31:09Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Is that a “My pastor says so” “No, it’s not” or an “I’m out of arguments” “No, it’s not”? haha, you are referring to talking to God and repenting. I was joking 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/218 "2012-10-12T20:25:33Z")
Btw, how come this place is full of agnostics, socialists and atheists? Don’t y’all realize we’re in the end of days? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/219 "2012-10-12T21:39:15Z")
> [@Gin\_Bell](#): > > Btw, how come this place is full of agnostics, socialists and atheists? Don’t y’all realize we’re in the end of days? Jokes like this only really work when you’re _not_ saying things a lot of people seriously believe. This is related to [Poe’s Law](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law). ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/220 "2012-10-12T22:36:46Z")
I will keep my day job for the time being :rolleyes: I do believe the universe may just happen to fold itself up tomorrow, so why not live to the fullest while you can 😃 Could someone explain why it is that if you believe in Santa Claus you are cute, but if you belief in Jesus you’re a nutcase? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519.md?page=12)