# Neutrinos and black holes **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 24, 2000, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519 "2000-01-24T00:15:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/61 "2012-10-03T02:58:39Z")
> [@Gin\_Bell](#): > > It takes at least the size of 5 photons to see something and that much would be so small it is just considered noise. I highly a neutrino was ever seen with the naked eye. But if the eye was wearing a thick wool sweater and a parka… ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/62 "2012-10-03T02:58:41Z")
As **Chronos** surely recalls, in the long thread [Can neutrinos travel Faster than Light?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=625273) the issue of the number and “permeability” of neutrinos, as well as the case of when and how they can be directly observed by the human senses, is discussed at _great_ length. ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/63 "2012-10-03T03:07:11Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > But if the eye was wearing a thick wool sweater and a parka… Now I think about it for some time, they may have actually seen them, as long as nobody knows for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/64 "2012-10-03T03:20:47Z")
Also, if neutrinos move with the speed of light or even faster, than they travel way to fast to be seen so these must have been slow neutrinos. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/65 "2012-10-03T03:26:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > consciousness doesn’t really have anything to do with physics. It does to the extent biology has to do with physics. It’s all built on the same substance, the same laws, and the same underlying reality, unless and until someone disproves that. ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/66 "2012-10-03T03:31:18Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > It does to the extent biology has to do with physics. It’s all built on the same substance, the same laws, and the same underlying reality, unless and until someone disproves that. :rolleyes: > **[Quantum Consciousness](https://www.scaruffi.com/science/qc.html)** ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/67 "2012-10-03T03:59:50Z")
> [@Gin\_Bell](#): > > :rolleyes: > > [Quantum Consciousness](http://www.scaruffi.com/science/qc.html) Like the ethereal deluge of neutrinos flowing through my body every instant, I felt something like this would eventually surface. GLWAT. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/68 "2012-10-03T04:11:21Z")
1st teir Pseudoscience warning signs: 1. Obnoxious, swirly, tiled .gif background. 2. One, long wall of eternally scrollable text, using words like “quantum” with disturbing regularity. 3. Said wall of text on a similarly obnoxious color as the tiled background, like pink, for instance. 4. 16 pt. Times New Roman, bold. ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/69 "2012-10-03T04:41:01Z")
Haha, not as compact as E=MC2 but regardless quiet a nice read. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/70 "2012-10-03T04:49:20Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > … > GLWAT. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/71 "2012-10-03T05:00:34Z")
> [@Gin\_Bell](#): > > :rolleyes: > > [Quantum Consciousness](http://www.scaruffi.com/science/qc.html) Why should anyone take this seriously? What journals has this stuff been published in? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/72 "2012-10-03T05:01:04Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > 😕 (Good Luck With Allllll That) ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/73 "2012-10-03T05:05:10Z")
> [@Gin\_Bell](#): > > Haha, not as compact as E=MC2 but regardless quiet a nice read. Okay. Being I don’t have the time to read a wall of text on pink Formica, care to give the cliffnotes? And are you convinced on any of the arguments/propositions you might give based on your link? ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/74 "2012-10-03T05:41:20Z")
Ok, below the most important parts taken from the top of the article: Physics cannot explain consciousness, since they are using a Physics that 1. was designed to study matter and leave out consciousness and that 2. does not work in the microworld. Alfred Lotka, proposed in 1924 that the mind controls the brain by modulating the quantum jumps that would otherwise lead to a completely random existence. American physicist Evan Walker designs synaptic tunneling model (1970) --\> electrons can “tunnel” between adjacent neurons, thereby creating a virtual neural network overlapping the real one. It is this virtual nervous system that produces consciousness and that can direct the behavior of the real nervous system. The real nervous system operates by means of synaptic messages. The virtual one operates by means of the quantum effect of tunneling (particles passing through an energy barrier that classically they should not be able to climb). The real one is driven by classical laws, the virtual one by quantum laws. Occurance of Bose-Einstein condensate in which many parts of a system do not only behave as a whole, they become whole. In 1986 Herbert Froehlich suggested condensation can be achieved in Nature by biological organisms. In particular, it should arise when biological oscillators which are in a nonequilibrium state (such as all plants and animals) are maintained at constant temperature. The biological usefulness of biological oscillators is that, like laser light, they can amplify signals and encode information (e.g., they can “remember” an external stimulus). In 1989 the British psychiatrist Ian Marshall showed similarities between the holistic properties of condensates and those of consciousness, and suggested that consciousness may arise from the excitation of such a Bose-Einstein condensate. In Marshall’s hypothesis, the brain contains a Froelich-style condensate, and, whenever the condensate is excited by an electrical field, conscious experience occurs. Drawing from Bertrand Russell’s idea that consciousness provides a kind of “window” onto the brain, the philosopher Michael Lockwood advanced a theory of consciousness as a process of perception of brain states. He noted that Special Relativity implies that mental states must be physical states (mental states must be in space given that they are in time). Then Lockwood interpreted the role of the observer in Quantum Mechanics as the role of consciousness in the physical world (as opposed to a simple interference with the system being observed). Lockwood argued that sensations must be intrinsic attributes of physical states of the brain: in quantum lingo, each observable attribute (e.g., each sensation) corresponds to an observable of the brain. Consciousness scans the brain to look for sensations. It does not create them, it just seeks them. In 1986 John Eccles, the British neurophysiologist who discovered neurotransmitters, has speculated that synapses in the cortex respond in a probabilistic manner to neural excitation. Herbert thinks that consciousness is a pervasive process in nature. Mind is as fundamental a component of the universe as elementary particles and forces. Mind can be detected by three features of quantum theory: randomness, thinglessness (objects acquire attributes only once they are observed) and interconnectedness (John Bell’s discovery that once two particles have interacted they remain connected). James Culbertson speculated that consciousness may be a relativistic feature of spacetime. In his opinion, too, consciousness permeates all of nature, so that every object has a degree of consciousness. And there is more but I find it difficult to compact text more so I leave it with this for now. If this interests you should likely finish the article by reading it in full. ---
**Author:** ![JLRogers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce73a5/32.png) [@JLRogers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JLRogers)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/75 "2012-10-03T05:43:28Z")
> [@Gin\_Bell](#): > > :rolleyes: > > [Quantum Consciousness](http://www.scaruffi.com/science/qc.html) Inaccurate, I’m afraid. Please to consider this alternate theory. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/76 "2012-10-03T05:54:51Z")
> [@JLRogers](#): > > Inaccurate, I’m afraid. Please to consider this alternate theory. Is he a member of the Order of Harmonic Antipodal Cubic Divinity Life? In fact, from now on I will question any statement made here by anyone _not_ being so accredited. ---
**Author:** ![Bremidon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@Bremidon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bremidon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/77 "2012-10-03T06:00:57Z")
> [@Gin\_Bell](#): > > …so these must have been slow neutrinos. You mean the kind that watch Jersey Shore and have to have jokes explained to them? ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/78 "2012-10-03T18:06:12Z")
> [@JLRogers](#): > > Inaccurate, I’m afraid. Please to consider this alternate theory. Wow… why didn’t I think of that myself :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Bremidon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@Bremidon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bremidon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/79 "2012-10-03T18:13:16Z")
> [@JLRogers](#): > > Inaccurate, I’m afraid. Please to consider this alternate theory. After daring to click “next page,” I was confronted with the obvious Truth: “Greenwich Time is a Lie.” :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Gin\_Bell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@Gin\_Bell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gin_Bell)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519/80 "2012-10-03T18:25:35Z")
What intrigued me about the text I posted a link to is that there is the idea of a virtual grid projected upon things as is produced by our brains. This grid is supposedly ‘consciousness’ and used to explain how things connect and interact with each other, regardless from large amounts of space that apparently separate them, yet very clearly bound to time and also each with its own location in spacetime. This view also explains why we can’t see conscious in terms of matter. It kinda makes me feel as if I were playing in the Matrix movie 🆒 A cool property of this view is that when only the virtual projection is disturbed, it eventually settles into the physical plane since constantly synchronized both ways. What are your thoughts on this, and if you disagree can you provide a link to a better theory? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-and-black-holes/6519.md?page=5)