# Neutrinos break speed of light **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 22, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267 "2011-09-22T23:06:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/21 "2011-09-23T16:48:24Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > No it means Einstein was almost right. > > ETA: But it’s going to take a fair bit more than a single experiment to over throw GR Really? A particle with some positive mass travelling faster than light seems to point blank refute a whole chunk of Special Relativity. Further, from what I understand, the experiment was repeated 15,000 times giving a statistically significant result. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/22 "2011-09-23T16:50:39Z")
Well, it’s not like the neutrinos were a _lot_ faster than light. They only arrived 60 nanoseconds sooner than expected. I think they cheated. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/23 "2011-09-23T16:55:58Z")
I thought neutrinos were massless, and that E=mc[sup]2[/sup] only applied to objects with mass. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/24 "2011-09-23T16:56:47Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Really? A particle with some positive mass travelling faster than light seems to point blank refute a whole chunk of Special Relativity. Further, from what I understand, the experiment was repeated 15,000 times giving a statistically significant result. That’s assuming there isn’t some flaw in the apparatus or experimental design or some such. Something like that would be present all 15,000 times. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/25 "2011-09-23T16:58:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I thought neutrinos were massless, and that E=mc[sup]2[/sup] only applied to objects with mass. > > Regards, > Shodan Photons are massless, and they still can’t go faster than c. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/26 "2011-09-23T16:59:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I thought neutrinos were massless, and that E=mc[sup]2[/sup] only applied to objects with mass. > > Regards, > Shodan [Physics - Neutrinos Have Mass](http://focus.aps.org/story/v2/st10) They have mass. Just not much. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/27 "2011-09-23T17:00:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I thought neutrinos were massless, and that E=mc[sup]2[/sup] only applied to objects with mass. > > Regards, > Shodan Massless objects, such as photons, travel at c in a vacuum and no faster. The claim here is that the neutrinos’ speed exceeded c. Not that I’m buying this, by the way. I’m relatively confident that some kind of error will be found. If it isn’t then my computer will no longer work. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/28 "2011-09-23T17:08:48Z")
Wait, I thought it was that objects couldn’t accelerate to c or faster, because then they would have infinite math. Doesn’t this leave open the possibility of something that travels faster than c because it has no mass (even though photons don’t either)? But wait, aren’t neutrinos supposed to have an itty bitty eeny weeny teensy amount of mass? Just enough to account for their incredibly rare interactions with other particles? And have neutrinos _always_ been doing this, or was it just this particular group of neutrinos? I am so confused. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/29 "2011-09-23T17:12:28Z")
What would happen if you put them on a rolling conveyor belt. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/30 "2011-09-23T17:18:15Z")
I blame the Coriolis effect. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/31 "2011-09-23T17:18:21Z")
This will wind up being like the Pioneer anomaly. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/32 "2011-09-23T17:29:54Z")
The actual experiment’s site. [http://operaweb.lngs.infn.it/](http://operaweb.lngs.infn.it/) A pretty good BBC article. > **[Speed-of-light results under scrutiny at Cern](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484)** > > Scientists discuss the anomalous but exciting find that neutrinos appear to have travelled faster than the apparently unbreakable barrier of light speed. The error is roughly 17 meters, so that’s bigger than the potential GPS error. And they tried it 15000 times. I got nothing. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/33 "2011-09-23T17:44:57Z")
Perhaps they were Type A personality neutrinos. ---
**Author:** ![Encinitas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Encinitas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Encinitas)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/34 "2011-09-23T17:53:36Z")
But…but…the speed of light is the law. We can’t tolerate these scofflaw neutrinos! Ticket 'em I say. ---
**Author:** ![Full\_Metal\_Lotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Full\_Metal\_Lotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Full_Metal_Lotus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/35 "2011-09-23T18:15:33Z")
I am betting on some experimental error. If I understand correctly, neutrino detectors are buried deep in the earth. This puts them slightly closer to the center of mass for the earth. (Deeper into the gravity well). Time “passes” at different (SLOWER) rates as one gets closer to the middle of a gravity well. This may or may not be a contributing factor, but my money ($200 xkcd dollars) is on the idea of an error in calculation or allowance for erropr sources. If 15,000 trials were done using the same apparatus and calculation protocols, then you would get 15,000 repeats of the same problem. Still, it would be cool… here is a link from one of my fave , obscure Canadian Prog rock bands… [- YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk0Is8-gGSQ) which looks at things from the nuetrino’s point of view… ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/36 "2011-09-23T18:25:47Z")
I took a physics class about the nature of time, and I remember the professor talking about how if you had an object traveling faster than c, then causality would necessarily HAVE to be reversed for that particle to make any sense. It would have negative energy, and in effect, be traveling backwards in time. Unless all of that is wrong as well, this sort of measurement shouldn’t theoretically be possible. I would also like to add that neutrinos can change flavors as they travel which means that they experience time, which means they must necessarily travel less than c, which means they have mass. The reason we know neutrinos must have a mass is because we know that they can change over time, whereas a photon is eternal (unless it gets absorbed by something) ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/37 "2011-09-23T18:57:57Z")
C’mon. 60 nanoseconds? How doubtful is that claim? Like any of those scientists could push the stopwatch button that fast. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/38 "2011-09-23T19:02:17Z")
Their mistake is in using a wristwatch one of the neutrinos is wearing; of course it will show that they got there faster! ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/39 "2011-09-23T19:25:40Z")
I will be the first to blame steroids. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267/40 "2011-09-23T21:23:21Z")
Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that this holds up. Can we then transmit information into the past? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/neutrinos-break-speed-of-light/597267.md?page=3)