# Nevada Cattle Rancher v Bureau of Land Management **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 11, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886 "2014-04-11T17:28:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/1 "2014-04-11T17:28:12Z")
This is an interesting story. Apparently a guy who’s family has been ranching cattle in this area of Nevada on public lands since 1877 has run afoul of a couple court orders, rezoning of the grazing lands in order to save an endangered species of turtle and the BLM has now been called in to start confiscating his cattle. Protesters showed up to block the federal agents from doing their job, a man was tased, a dog kicked…and the federal agents decided to leave. What bothers me more than anything about this is that the feds set up a “1st Amendment Area” for the protesters, in the middle of the freaking desert! Judge for yourself, I’m linking the CNN article and there’s a 10 minute video of the confrontation linked within. > **[Showdown on the range: Nevada rancher, feds face off over cattle grazing...](https://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/us/nevada-rancher-rangers-cattle-showdown/index.html?hpt=hp_t3)** > > A 20-year dispute between a Nevada rancher and rangers over illegal cattle grazing becomes Old West-style showdown, even drawing armed militia groups. Anyone that lives in the state or area please chime in. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/2 "2014-04-11T17:35:02Z")
When I first read the headline I thought they’d rezoned his land but it was public land he was leasing grazing rights from. I’m sorry, someone else owns the land they have every right to change the deal when the contract is up for renewal. He’s been violating the law, multiple court orders and to add insult to injury not even paying the old grazing rates during his “protest” for 10 years. I think they waited too long to arrest the dude and confiscate his cattle. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/3 "2014-04-11T17:45:51Z")
> [@Moonlitherial](#): > > When I first read the headline I thought they’d rezoned his land but it was public land he was leasing grazing rights from. I’m sorry, someone else owns the land they have every right to change the deal when the contract is up for renewal. > > He’s been violating the law, multiple court orders and to add insult to injury not even paying the old grazing rates during his “protest” for 10 years. I think they waited too long to arrest the dude and confiscate his cattle. On the surface of it, that seems to be the case, but I can’t help but wonder if there’s more to this that we don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/4 "2014-04-11T18:26:59Z")
(I’ve lived in Nevada for 10+ years, but moved to Vegas just 2 months ago) The “more to this” is a constant issue in Nevada - it’s a state with a very strong libertarian/anti-government streak that is host to millions of acres of federally-owned or managed land. Something like 80% of the state is federally managed land, and a large part of the economy (especially outside of Vegas and Reno) depends on those federal dollars. Along with the feds and the state, that sector butts heads with the ranching community constantly - over grazing, mineral rights, water rights, and every other resource out there. Both the feds and the state are very aware of the issue and go through a lot of effort to avoid situations like this one. To me, the fact that the BLM have actually begun to confiscate his cattle is more surprising than the fact that they waited 20 years to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/5 "2014-04-11T18:46:45Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Anyone that lives in the state or area please chime in. Okay. > [@Enginerd](#): > > (I’ve lived in Nevada for 10+ years, but moved to Vegas just 2 months ago) > > To me, the fact that the BLM have actually begun to confiscate his cattle is more surprising than the fact that they waited 20 years to do it. Wait a second! Did we lose Vegas? 😃 I’m surprised CNN is covering this at all. They must think the missing airplane is hidden in this guys barn! Someone kicked a dog, so there will be _hell to pay!_ That’s all I got for now… ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/6 "2014-04-11T18:54:25Z")
It sounds like dude was paying his grazing “fees” or whatever they are called, until the government re-zoned the grazing areas to try to help save an endangered turtle. I’m all for saving endangered species, but were it my livelihood on the line, I’d be pretty pissed too. In the article he says something along the lines of “I’ll pay my grazing fees…to the rightful collector of those fees, county XYZ Nevada!”. Seems to be a strange statement given they are federal not state lands, and if he’d been paying his fees before, presumably they were going to the federal government, not a local one. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/7 "2014-04-11T18:56:38Z")
> [@Moonlitherial](#): > > When I first read the headline I thought they’d rezoned his land but it was public land he was leasing grazing rights from. I’m sorry, someone else owns the land they have every right to change the deal when the contract is up for renewal. I think this might be a concept that is difficult for people in cities (including me) and such to relate to, but I think people in places in which a large part of the economy and the way of life has traditionally relied on the wide open spaces look at “public land” differently, particularly when the government didn’t actually buy the land but has it purely via sovereignty. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/8 "2014-04-11T19:00:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I think this might be a concept that is difficult for people in cities (including me) and such to relate to, but I think people in places in which a large part of the economy and the way of life has traditionally relied on the wide open spaces look at “public land” differently, particularly when the government didn’t actually buy the land but has it purely via sovereignty. I think that’s a big part of it, plus when viewed through the lens of his family’s historical ties to cattle raising in that land, a history that predates the enacted laws and the creation of the federal agency that oversees them, then I can kind of get this guy’s frustration. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/9 "2014-04-11T19:03:22Z")
I kinda skimmed the article, but I don’t think he’s been paying any grazing fees at all. What I got out of the story is he believes he has the right to graze since his family has been doing the last 130-odd years, long before the BLM got involved.He’s pissed that the fed has “stolen” most of Nevada’s public lands. He claims he’ll pay the fees to who he thinks should get them, namely Clark County. I’ll bet they won’t hold their breath. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/10 "2014-04-11T19:09:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I think this might be a concept that is difficult for people in cities (including me) and such to relate to, but I think people in places in which a large part of the economy and the way of life has traditionally relied on the wide open spaces look at “public land” differently, particularly when the government didn’t actually buy the land but has it purely via sovereignty. I don’t think it’s a difficult concept to grasp, but I don’t understand your point about the government not actually buying the land. The ranchers didn’t buy it either, and governments rarely ‘buy’ their land. If you live in Alaska or the Louisiana Purchase territory you’re an exception to the rule. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/11 "2014-04-11T19:25:44Z")
Yeah, it sounds to me like it started out as a little “sagebrush rebellion” issue over federal management of public land, but has moved beyond it. You get lots of little disputes between federal agencies and private land users in the rural west. Usually there’s a certain amount of give-and-take and blind-eye-turning between the local management offices and the land users and things usually work out. But in the end when the Feds decide put their foot down, the land user has to go along with it, although these things do also end up in court fairly frequently. It looks to me like what happened here is that the local BLM had been mostly turning a blind eye to this guy for years, but then when they decided they needed to put their foot down, the guy started trotting out all this pseudo-legal gobbledygook to claim that he had a right to the land. This has now captured the attention of the whole sovereign citizen crowd and other related anti-government crazies, who are trying to turn the situation into a big high-profile standoff. Now it’s more about pushing _their_ agenda than it is about the guy and his cows. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/12 "2014-04-11T19:33:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Bundy’s dispute with the government began about 1993 when the bureau changed grazing rules for the 600,000-acre Gold Butte area to protect an endangered desert tortoise, KLAS reported. > > Bundy refused to abide by the changes and stopped paying his grazing fees to the federal bureau, which he contends is infringing on state rights. His family has been ranching since the 1800s, before the U.S. Department of Interior was created and endangered species became a federal issue, he said in an interview with KLAS. > > “My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley ever since 1877. All these rights I claim have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water. I have been here longer. My rights are before the BLM even existed,” Bundy told the station. First of all, who owns the land? Oh that’s right - somebody other than Bundy so they’re allowed to do what they want with it like in this case the Bureau of Land Mangement is managing the land. Second of all, I notice that Nevada didn’t own the land (as far as Bundy is concerned) until the Feds kicked his cows off. And anyone want to guess if he’s been paying the “rightful owners” of Clark County or Nevada since 1993? I think it’s no. Third of all, guy sounds like a sovereign citizen freeman of the land i.e. person who believes they don’t need to follow the law when inconvenient. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/13 "2014-04-11T19:42:22Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t think it’s a difficult concept to grasp, but I don’t understand your point about the government not actually buying the land. The ranchers didn’t buy it either, and governments rarely ‘buy’ their land. If you live in Alaska or the Louisiana Purchase territory you’re an exception to the rule. Can’t forget the Gadsden Purchase. 🙂 Nevada is, AFAICT, entirely in the territory the U.S. government won from Mexico in that war back in the mid-1800s. So _all_ of that land belonged to the government initially, and it eventually ceded control of some of it to the assorted states that were formed within that conquest. But unless the ranchers say **Mexico** is the true owner of the BLM lands, the owner has to be Uncle Sam. I bet they would be even less eager to pay user fees to Mexico. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/14 "2014-04-11T19:54:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I think this might be a concept that is difficult for people in cities (including me) and such to relate to, but I think people in places in which a large part of the economy and the way of life has traditionally relied on the wide open spaces look at “public land” differently, particularly when the government didn’t actually buy the land but has it purely via sovereignty. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Third of all, guy sounds like a sovereign citizen freeman of the land i.e. person who believes they don’t need to follow the law when inconvenient. I started to write a reply when I saw this. Yes he is making a lot of sovereign citizen noises. He claims he follows state law but not federal law. He takes all his grievances directly to the county sheriff and does not believe that anyone else has jurisdiction. He is actually much better at keeping the crazy talk to a minimum but he is still following the Magic Word Doctrine of law. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/15 "2014-04-11T20:15:34Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t think it’s a difficult concept to grasp, but I don’t understand your point about the government not actually buying the land. The ranchers didn’t buy it either, and governments rarely ‘buy’ their land. The ranchers didn’t buy it but they’re members of the public, using public land in the way it has traditionally been used by the public. Governments rarely buy this type of public land. But if the government has an office building somewhere, then they likely bought it, and people like this rancher would not take this type of attitude to such government property. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/16 "2014-04-11T22:07:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The ranchers didn’t buy it but they’re members of the public, using public land in the way it has traditionally been used by the public. You mean like a [commons](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons)? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/17 "2014-04-11T23:51:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The ranchers didn’t buy it but they’re members of the public, using public land in the way it has traditionally been used by the public. Why does this rancher have more right to use it the way he wants than anyone else? Suppose I want it to be closed to grazing because I like tortoises. Why does his interest in free grazing outweigh my interests? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/18 "2014-04-12T00:09:34Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Why does this rancher have more right to use it the way he wants than anyone else? Suppose I want it to be closed to grazing because I like tortoises. Why does his interest in free grazing outweigh my interests? I’m not arguing for this position, but the argument could be “Because my cattle and my well-being are more important than a stupid turtle”. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/19 "2014-04-12T00:21:38Z")
I heard him talk on the radio today. He said that the government had set up a refuge for the turtles years ago and that it has become so successful that some have to be culled from time to time. I would have to check that before believing it. I do know that a lot of animals in that area are dying from radiation poisoning but that would be the responsibility of the government to amend. In another thread in Great Debates I heard the mention of a _free speech area._ This one was on a college campus. People, this is a serious trend and limitation of our rights. Now are we going to be limited to have to go to a certain area in order to speak our opinion? What if no _free speech zone_ is designated? Could there be a consequence for speaking out? Bad idea because it implies there is no free speech outside that zone. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886/20 "2014-04-12T01:25:06Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > I heard him talk on the radio today. **He said that the government had set up a refuge for the turtles years ago and that it has become so successful that some have to be culled from time to time.** I would have to check that before believing it. This is not remotely true. > [@](#): > > In another thread in Great Debates I heard the mention of a _free speech area._ This one was on a college campus. > > People, this is a serious trend and limitation of our rights. Now are we going to be limited to have to go to a certain area in order to speak our opinion? What if no _free speech zone_ is designated? Could there be a consequence for speaking out? Bad idea because it implies there is no free speech outside that zone. The first time I remember hearing of “free speech areas” was during the second Bush administration, when protestors of the Iraq war were shuffled out of the view of cameras and good patriotic Americans. :rolleyes: They’ve only grown in popularity since then. (that smiley is supposed to be rolling his eyes, but he looks like he’s smirking. it’s wholly inadequate for my needs) Regardless of the terminology, though, the free speech area in this case is more a safety precaution than a trampling of rights. Here’s the [federal order](http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/nv/field_offices/las_vegas_field_office/cattle_trespass.Par.40211.File.dat/Dkt%2056%20Order%20Granting%20Motion%20to%20Enforce%2010-9-13.pdf) allowing the BLM to impound Bundy’s cattle. Note that the last item in the order states that “Bundy shall not physically interfere with any seizure or impoundment operation authorized by this order.” And here’s Bundy’s comment on the impending roundup: > [@Cliven Bundy](#): > > I’ve done quite a bit so far to keep my cattle, but I guess it’s not been enough. They took about 75 of my cattle today. I have said I’d do what it takes to keep my cattle so I guess it is going to have to be more physical. (from [here](http://www.mynews3.com/content/news/story/Rancher-Efforts-to-stop-cattle-removal-need-to-be/JdKWXDM4e0aNbsP_Z0nJfQ.cspx)). Given that kind of rhetoric, it’s hard to fault the feds for wanting to keep him in a known location out of the way of the roundup itself. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nevada-cattle-rancher-v-bureau-of-land-management/685886.md?page=2)