# New African Money Pit - ‘They Eat Money’: How Graft Enriches Mandela’s Political Heirs **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2018, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556 "2018-04-17T03:00:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/21 "2018-04-18T15:01:19Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > And for fuck’s sake, can we not turn every thread into a Trump/US thing? It serves no purpose. If only the OP hadn’t mentioned their (US) tax dollars…:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/22 "2018-04-18T15:49:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Who said the South African corruption was _Black_ corruption? It’s been quite multiracial, actually. What color are the ANC politicians mentioned in the OP’s article? For instance - > [@](#): > > …the visiting political boss, Mosebenzi Joseph Zwane, sold them on his latest deal: a government-backed dairy farm that they, as landless black farmers, would control. They would get an ownership stake in the business, just by signing up. They would go to India for training, all expenses paid. To hear him tell it, the dairy would bring jobs to the impoverished, help build a clinic and fix the roads. > > “He said he wanted to change our lives,” said Ephraim Dhlamini, who, despite suspicions that the offer was too good to be true, signed up to become a “beneficiary” of the project. “This thing is coming from the government, free of charge. You can’t say you don’t like this thing. You must take it.” > > But, sure enough, his instincts were right. > > The dairy farm turned out to be a classic South African fraud, prosecutors say: I doubt a BLM activist would be pacified when I point out that many or most police shootings are of whites, so it is quite multi-racial. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/23 "2018-04-18T15:54:09Z")
If you don’t see what’s ridiculous in comparing the BLM movement to African politicians then I don’t think there is much to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/24 "2018-04-18T16:15:29Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Giving money to people who’d squander them and use them in ways opposed to our intentions is, at least, debatable. > Also, the massive aid funds used in Africa for decades on end have done next to nothing to even make a dent on Africa’s problems. So you believe that foreign aid is mostly just giving cash to bad governments? And PEPFAR is estimated to have saved 11 million lives in Africa. How, in your estimation, is that “next to nothing?” > [@](#): > > After 40 years in Peru, the UNICEF office here found out that, despite the myriad of programs they’d done over time, their final effect was, basically, zero. Can you link to that report? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/25 "2018-04-18T16:45:34Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > This is not how I want my tax dollars spent. I agree! This makes me so mad I want to cut my legs off and shoot my girlfriend! ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/26 "2018-04-18T18:55:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > For all the screeching that happens when “Black Lives Matter” gets the response that all lives matter, I would have thought that “Black Corruption Matters” wouldn’t be turned aside with “All Corruption Matters”. > > Regards, > Shodan Kind of a non-sequitur, isn’t it? What does BLM have to do with US foreign aid? It like saying “Based on the missile strikes in Syria, I would have thought the Nationals would shore up their bullpen.” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/27 "2018-04-18T19:44:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What color are the ANC politicians mentioned in the OP’s article? What colour are the Guptas? What colour are the people from SAP, HSBC and other businesses involved? What colour are Shabir Skaik or Shaun Abrahams?? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/28 "2018-04-18T20:27:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > For all the screeching that happens when “Black Lives Matter” gets the response that all lives matter, I would have thought that “Black Corruption Matters” wouldn’t be turned aside with “All Corruption Matters”. I’m going to assume you’re just incredibly morally myopic and don’t realize how racist the quoted post is. Or at least I’m going to act that way here outside of the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/29 "2018-04-18T20:45:11Z")
Well, I’d just like to express relief about the level of concern of the millions of dollars in American foreign aid being spent for things like providing AIDS drugs to sick South Africans, because the South African government is so corrupt; and we’re all fine with the hundreds of billions of dollars spent annually in corrupt states like Illinois or West Virginia. Our priorities are truly straight. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/30 "2018-04-19T00:49:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A large part of that corruption was _facilitated by_ Western companies, so it’s a bit hypocritical to single out just the South Africans and not, say, the McKinseys, SAPs, Thyssen-Krupps, BAEs and Saab-Gripens of the world. It takes two to tango, in corruption, after all. I’m trying to understand what a Swedish fighter plane has to do with this…I can’t figure it out. Does the Swedish defense industry have a reputation for graft? Anyway, corruption is everywhere. _Everywhere._ It is absolutely rampant in the United States. It is rampant everywhere. Why pick on South Africa? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/31 "2018-04-19T01:13:01Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > I’m trying to understand what a Swedish fighter plane has to do with this…I can’t figure it out. Does the Swedish defense industry have a reputation for graft? Details [here](https://sites.tufts.edu/corruptarmsdeals/2017/05/05/the-south-african-arms-deal/). It was BAE rather than Saab that seems to have been the major player in the bribes involving the Gripens( which was part of a package involving BAE Hawks ), with Saab disavowing any knowledge of the deal. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/32 "2018-04-19T05:15:40Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Details [here](https://sites.tufts.edu/corruptarmsdeals/2017/05/05/the-south-african-arms-deal/). It was BAE rather than Saab that seems to have been the major player in the bribes involving the Gripens( which was part of a package involving BAE Hawks ), with Saab disavowing any knowledge of the deal. Well, you would, wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/33 "2018-04-19T07:04:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, you would, wouldn’t you? Yep :). Considering there has been multiple hints of bribery around the Gripen, a grain or two of salt is probably warranted when reading Saab statements( or that of any arms manufacturer, really ). ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/34 "2018-04-19T13:55:20Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Ravenman](#): > > So you believe that foreign aid is mostly just giving cash to bad governments? No, at least not “here Mr. Presindet, get this wad of money to help the poor.” > [@](#): > > However, yes because the company that builds the hospital, or the bridge, or that delivers the vaccines, or that distributes the food are well connected with the governemt and lots of money is lost. > So you believe foreign aid just magically gets used correctly and wisely and efficiently even when in the country of origin there is corruption? > [@](#): > > And PEPFAR is estimated to have saved 11 million lives in Africa. How, in your estimation, is that “next to nothing?” Estimated by whom? The people running it? The NIH is critical of some aspects, because it funds some areas and makes others “aspects” of healthcare less sexy. Even so, a program that is well-directed and monothematic (medicine for a specific disease) is a good thing and easier to control than others, but we can’t lose sight of unintended consequences. > [@](#): > > Can you link to that report? No, it was internal. As proof, however, no area in Peru that receives UNICEF help has ever left the condition the triggered the help. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/35 "2018-04-19T14:18:59Z")
(Sorry about the double post) > [@MrDibble](#): > > If only the OP hadn’t mentioned their (US) tax dollars…:rolleyes: Yes. However, talking about the misuse of farm aid in North Dakota doesn’t help to further the discussion on “appropriate management and distribution of foreign aid” Furthermore, saying that there are other instances of corruption within the US simply derails the (very) specific topic. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/36 "2018-04-19T16:11:57Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > (Sorry about the double post) > Yes. However, talking about the misuse of farm aid in North Dakota doesn’t help to further the discussion on “appropriate management and distribution of foreign aid” Furthermore, saying that there are other instances of corruption within the US simply derails the (very) specific topic. The topic is broadly “I don’t want my tax dollars wasted on corruption in Africa” pointing out that they’re getting wasted locally (and also, not really in Africa) is hardly off topic. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/37 "2018-04-19T16:48:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The topic is broadly “I don’t want my tax dollars wasted on corruption in Africa” pointing out that they’re getting wasted locally (and also, not really in Africa) is hardly off topic. It really is off topic though. I mean, I agree foreign aid waste is trivial compared to other government waste, but in your definition it’s perfectly fine to bring up the Pentagon wasting money in my corn subsidies rant thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/38 "2018-04-19T17:14:27Z")
[quote=“Aji\_de\_Gallina, post:34, topic:812556”] > [@](#): > > No, at least not “here Mr. Presindet, get this wad of money to help the poor.” But that is the implication – either intentionally or accidentally – of many of the posts here: that the U.S. foreign aid is lining the pockets of corrupt politicians in South Africa. Since the U.S. doesn’t just hand over millions of cash to the government (especially considering the poor U.S.-RSA relations nowadays), nobody should just assume that this is happening. > [@](#): > > Estimated by whom? The people running it? There’s been audits of the program by numerous agencies, including the independent Government Accountability Office that found significant decreases in mortality (including a 20% improvement between 2005 and 2011), while also pointing out areas that need better management. These assessments contradict your unsupported opinion that “next to nothing” has improved in Africa. > [@](#): > > No, it was internal. As proof, however, no area in Peru that receives UNICEF help has ever left the condition the triggered the help. I am shocked – shocked, I tell you – that you can’t provide proof that UNICEF regards itself as just wasting everyone’s time and money. You could truly bowl me over with a feather. As far as your “proof,” I can point out that national security in Europe continues to be a problem, so I guess that’s “proof” that World War II was a waste of time. Right? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/39 "2018-04-20T09:20:24Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It really is off topic though. I mean, I agree foreign aid waste is trivial compared to other government waste, but in your definition it’s perfectly fine to bring up the Pentagon wasting money in my corn subsidies rant thread. Depends on the construction of your OP and the content of your rant. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556/40 "2018-04-20T19:35:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Depends on the construction of your OP and the content of your rant. Since nothing about this OP invites discussion of the entire U.S. budget, I don’t believe you. You are engaging in “whataboutism” that is very selectively disparaged around here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-african-money-pit-they-eat-money-how-graft-enriches-mandela-s-political-heirs/812556.md?page=3)