# New bin Laden videotape: Again, he avoids the important question. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815 "2003-09-10T19:08:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/21 "2003-09-10T21:18:52Z")
You’re going off the deep-end **akrako1,** the “evidence” that we knew about Pearl Harbor is laughable. We certainly didn’t have their codes broken. And it wouldn’t have mattered if we did: The orders were never transmitted by radio. (IIRC we had broken their diplomatic codes, whihc is why a “Japanese may attack” message was sent to Pacific areas. The fate of this message is very well documented.) I suspect nothing is going to convince you about al-queda since the Aide confessing in al-Queda’s own magazine isn’t enough. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/22 "2003-09-10T21:21:17Z")
Wow. Conpiracy theory much? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/23 "2003-09-10T21:23:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zcrysis \* > \*\*Um…NO. Just because some people have doubts about the ‘official’ story does not make them any of these things. All it does is make them a bit more cynical and suspicious then the average. No, after some experience with this type, we are not seeing reasonable doibt, we are seeing the conpsiracy-theorist mentality. There’s abubble being built here that you couldn’t burst with a jackhammer. > [@](#): > > It is nice of you to use indiscriminate generalisation and murder to impose your political beliefs on the rest of us though. Kind of like them terrorist folk. \*\* Murder? Where the heck did this come from? ---
**Author:** ![akrako1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@akrako1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akrako1)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/24 "2003-09-10T21:31:39Z")
It’s wonderful how ‘crackpot nonsense’ is a respectable reply in a debate. I’m glad you took the time to actually consider my points. Anyways, for the more open-minded: Remote Control piloting: I’m sorry you think this is nonsense, but have you ever heard of the Predator? Or have you been listening to the recent dabate about improving airplane secutiry but adding a system that is automated, and will let someone on the ground take control of the plane? This is not futuristic technology. This is fact. I can provides all the cites you want. Piloting skills of the hijackers: [http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/2001/coxnews102101.html](http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/2001/coxnews102101.html) Here’s more ‘nonsense’ about alive ‘hajackers’ being found. Also information on the hijackers, or any arabs, missing from the flight manifests that were published very quickly after the event. [http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essayjarrah.html](http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essayjarrah.html) [http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hijackers.html](http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hijackers.html) Isn’t it a little conventiend that we found Atta’s unsinged passport two blocks from the WTC? It somehow got seperated from his luggage and made it down to the street completely undamaged… oh yeah, and the Koran that another hijacker left in his rental car at the airport - eh, wouldn’t most suicidal-fundamentalist hijackers bring their Koran with them? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/25 "2003-09-10T21:56:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Miskatonic \* > \*\*Murder? Where the heck did this come from? \*\* From **Dogface** , a few inches above: > [@](#): > > There are plenty of crackpots, neo-nazis (yes, neo-nazis, believe it or not), fellow terrorists, terrorist sympathizers, and other generally evil people who need to be exterminated for the good of humanity who seriously believe as akrako1 does. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/26 "2003-09-10T21:57:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by akrako1 \* > Remote Control piloting: I’m sorry you think this is nonsense, but have you ever heard of the Predator? Or have you been listening to the recent dabate about improving airplane secutiry but adding a system that is automated, and will let someone on the ground take control of the plane? This is not futuristic technology. This is fact. I can provides all the cites you want. Provide all you want, every time this subject came up in the rec.aviation groups, the pilots and engineers laughed their asses off. > [@](#): > > Piloting skills of the hijackers: > [http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/2001/coxnews102101.html](http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/2001/coxnews102101.html) Again, you seem to think that there is some super skill needed to fly a plane _into_ something. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/27 "2003-09-10T22:23:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by acsenray \* > \*\*You forget what site you are on – [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mpearlharbor.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mpearlharbor.html) \*\* Er… Maybe I’m just dense, but… > [@](#): > > \*\*So the American government knew an attack on Pearl Harbor was coming. \*\* > > No. The Japanese government was not in the habit of informing its diplomats of planned military strikes in detail. So while the Americans knew that Japanese diplomats had been instructed to deliver a certain message to the U.S. government at 1 p.m. on December 7 and then destroy their cipher machine and secret documents, and from this deduced that something big was about to happen, they did not know where to expect the initial attack. The Pacific Ocean’s a big place, and there were lots of targets available to the Japanese–the Philippines, Dutch East Indies, Singapore, etc. Admiral Stark recognized that the Japanese were planning to attack somewhere, but told his subordinates it would be “against either the Philippines, Thai, or Kra Peninsula or possibly Borneo.” As is well known, the American military failed to take advantage of what little warning it did have through bad luck and incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![akrako1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@akrako1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akrako1)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/28 "2003-09-10T22:24:24Z")
Have fun laughing your ass off when you read the following: Since 1959, NORAD personnel have been installing remote control units in a variety of aircraft and remotely controlling those aircraft in sophisticated aeronautical maneuvers, including combat practice. See “Thwarting skyjackings from the ground,” written by Alan Staats for Facsnet, and posted on October 2, 2001. (Facsnet is an education service provided for its reporters by Associated Press.) [http://www.facsnet.org/issues/specials/terrorism/aviation.php3](http://www.facsnet.org/issues/specials/terrorism/aviation.php3) or [http://www.Public-Action.com/911/facsnet/aviation.php3](http://www.Public-Action.com/911/facsnet/aviation.php3) (Look at paragraph entitled “History on remote control.”) And contrary to your statement, crashing a jumbo jet into a highrise is not as easy as your think. I’d agree, that yes, while flying straight along, you could fairly easy point at a building and hit it. One of the planes made a perfect bank and hit the building while still turning. This is not terribly easy. A jumbo jet handles something like a semi. If you have a big enough distance you can line up the plane, but I’m pretty sure they don’t teach you to make hard, tight turns into buildings at flight school. ---
**Author:** ![akrako1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@akrako1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akrako1)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/29 "2003-09-10T22:37:24Z")
Autopsy evidence: no Arabs on flight 77: [http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article\_tro.htm](http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/30 "2003-09-10T22:46:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by akrako1 \* > Have fun laughing your ass off when you read the following: > > Since 1959, NORAD personnel have been installing remote control units in a variety of aircraft and remotely controlling those aircraft in sophisticated aeronautical maneuvers, including combat > practice. \ That’s nice, now how did they get such a complex system into a commercial craft that Boeing hasn’t built a new one in years. Oh, and yet somehow is able to override the pilot’s own commands. Such modification are not done with a sooper-sekrit-hidden-black-box-that-overrides-everything, but involve at least several days work, and the total complicity of the maintenence center and airline. This would stil only get a system equivelant to the old (and hated) “Global Hawk” system which had severe limitations and was not accurate enough to fly into buildings. Again, the pilots laugh. > [@](#): > > And contrary to your statement, crashing a jumbo jet into a highrise is not as easy as your think. I’d agree, that yes, while flying straight along, you could fairly easy point at a building and hit it. One of the planes made a perfect bank and hit the building while still turning. And almost missed. Look at the tape, the damage (before collapse), and the hundreds of diagrams. The second hit was almost a glancing blow compared to the first hit. The Pentagon plane hit the ground before it hit the wall. > [@](#): > > This is not terribly easy. A jumbo jet handles something like a semi. If you have a big enough distance you can line up the plane, but I’m pretty sure they don’t teach you to make hard, tight turns into buildings at flight school. \*\* They teach you to turn, don’t they? A kid trained on MSFS could fly into a building. It doesn’t take military precision to bank an airplane. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/31 "2003-09-10T23:01:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by akrako1 \* > \*\*Autopsy evidence: no Arabs on flight 77: > [http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article\_tro.htm](http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm) \*\* The main quote: "I undertook by FOIA request, to obtain that autopsy list and you are invited to view it below. Guess what? Still no Arabs on the list. " Gee, its like they were using stolen identities or something. I believe a conviction for providng them with papers took place in New Jersey took place. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/32 "2003-09-10T23:17:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by akrako1 \* > \*\*Autopsy evidence: no Arabs on flight 77: > [http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article\_tro.htm](http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm) \*\* I’m wondering just what the physical differences are that allow a doctor doing an autopsy to identify the religion or birth-country of a corpse. Offhand, I can’t think of any at all. Can anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/33 "2003-09-10T23:26:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by akrako1 \* > \*\* I believe it was nearly the next day - AFTER the passenger manifests had been published without any of the names. \*\* Duh – I thought a passenger manifest _was_ just a list of names. If the airlines had released on without the names, what exactly was on it? A list of the seat numbers? I think you need to turn up your B.S. detector a bit higher when you are reading some of this stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/34 "2003-09-11T13:42:27Z")
My thanks to everyone who has contributed intelligent, thoughtful, and factual information regarding my question. (You know who you are … :D) I should have mentioned in my OP that I firmly believe that al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden were indeed behind the attacks, but that I was just seeking any evidence from the mouths of OBL and/or al Qaeda that they indeed were the culprits. I was looking for statements not unlike those that typically come from Hamas, or the IRA, or ETA that unabashedly claim responsibility for a bomb attack. **Walloon** , the cite you provided (the November 2001 videotape transcript) seems to be the closest to what I was seeking. Never has OBL stated, in simple and direct terms, that he and al Qaeda carried out the attacks. But it’s clear from the way OBL talks of the hijackers on this videotape that he is talking about **his** operatives, carrying out **his** objectives, using **his** plans. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/35 "2003-09-11T15:04:22Z")
“One of the planes made a perfect bank and hit the building while still turning. This is not terribly easy. A jumbo jet handles something like a semi. If you have a big enough distance you can line up the plane, but I’m pretty sure they don’t teach you to make hard, tight turns into buildings at flight school.” Rubbish. On the contrary, they do teach you hard, tight, unrehearsed, short distance turns in flight school. They teach you radical unusual maneuvers and techniques that are not intended to be used in normal controlled flight, but are intended to teach the pilot how to react and handle emrgency situations in flight, including a malfunctioning aircraft, severe weather, etc. And despite their size, 757s and 767s are surprisingly nimble aircraft. From personally speaking with commercial pilots, they only handle like semis while on the ground. In the air, I talked with one pilot that characterized the 757 as a “tricked out Mustang”, with tons of power and maneuverability to spare and can “turn on a dime”. It would be ridiculously easy to hit a building. BTW, I am a pilot and an aerospace engineer that works intimately with behemoth-sized airplanes. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/36 "2003-09-11T15:14:09Z")
> [@](#): > > ## You forget what site you are on – [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mpearlharbor.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mpearlharbor.html) > > Er… Maybe I’m just dense, but… That’s exactly the point I was trying to make, **Speaker**. My jibe was directed at the conspiracy theorist. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/37 "2003-09-11T15:48:49Z")
I usually avoid these threads like the plague but -\> Ok so let me get this straight **akrako1**. You think Al Qaeda, and OBL had nothing to do with the september 121th attacks, further more you think there were no hijackers even on the planes, and finally that they were remotely controlled to hit the targets they hit. Who controlled the remotes 😕 The government? Our Governement? Did you support timothy McVeigh as well? Jeez just say the main body of my post out loud and see if any red lights or 'hmmm that sounds nuts" alarms go off in your brain… ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/38 "2003-09-11T15:52:42Z")
Ahem…September 11th…I have big fingers 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/39 "2003-09-11T16:32:26Z")
**akrako1** must be right. Watch the tapes closely, all the evidence is there. Do you see any stars in the nighttime sky? Nope!! And there’s no blast crater under the lunar lander, either! And the rocks are clearly shaped like… Oh, wait. Wrong crackpot theory. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815/40 "2003-09-11T17:28:08Z")
**akrako1** - one other point. If the planes were remote controlled, why would they have needed to bank as such in order to hit their targets? They could have starightened them out a lot earlier in the flight. If you say they banked to miss other buildings, then why didn`t they (the operators of the remotes) choose the best path for the cleanest hit? Holes, I tell you, holes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-bin-laden-videotape-again-he-avoids-the-important-question/200815.md?page=3)