# New Cheap PC for Windows 11 or supporting Discourse discussion {Also obsoleting Browsers & OP systems} **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Tags:** computer-hardware\ **Created:** [April 3, 2025, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577 "2025-04-03T16:26:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/81 "2025-04-04T17:01:50Z")
I preferred Windows 10, but haven’t had any problems with Windows 11. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/82 "2025-04-04T17:04:35Z")
The only thing I didn’t care for is the Start Menu. I didn’t like how it changed from 10. It’s too simplified and the “Recommended” part is completely useless and takes up space better used for other things. But that was more a matter of just getting used to it. I don’t really miss the alphabetical list of apps anymore. Honestly, if it’s not a pinned app that I use regularly, I just search for the name which is better than scrolling through a list anyway. Oh, and I don’t like that I can no longer resize the pinned app icons, but that’s a minor quibble. Everything else in the OS is better to me. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/83 "2025-04-04T17:11:27Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I think the biggest complaint I see is that you are pretty much required to set up a Microsoft account to use Windows 11. Technically there is a way to do it without setting up an account, but (1) it is a real pain in the butt and (2) it’s buggy and some things don’t work properly without a Microsoft account. For people who don’t want to use a Microsoft account, it’s a deal-breaker. I was a little confused by this since I just have a local account and I don’t log in with a Microsoft account, but it does look like setting up an account is required for at least the initial setup process. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/84 "2025-04-04T17:13:38Z")
I have a Microsoft 365 plan, with a discount from work. That gives me a full Office suite and cloud backup for all of my important files. (Plus I can sync files across multiple computers with it.) I also play Xbox and need an account for that (which is the same account I use for my Office stuff). So this is a non-issue for me. But I get that it’s a choice I made, and not everyone will want to make the same choice. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/85 "2025-04-04T17:28:37Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > But that was more a matter of just getting used to it. I don’t really miss the alphabetical list of apps anymore. Honestly, if it’s not a pinned app that I use regularly, I just search for the name which is better than scrolling through a list anyway. I’m not good at remembering names of things. I hate that i need to search for everything, from apps to system settings. And there was a point when i had to Google how to turn it off. That’s not intuitive. And i hate the “file structure”, where it tries to mirror everything in the cloud, and then complains if you aren’t online, or aren’t paying for enough space to store your stuff. But it mostly works fine. And yes, i created an account with MS. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/86 "2025-04-04T17:30:15Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And i hate the “file structure”, where it tries to mirror everything in the cloud, and then complains if you aren’t online, or aren’t paying for enough space to store your stuff. Because I’m paying for M365 and it saves stuff to OneDrive with generous storage, I might be missing that particular annoyance. But I can imagine that can be a pain, I sympathize. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/87 "2025-04-04T19:18:45Z")
It was trying to autocomplete entire paragraphs for me. I don’t need that ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/88 "2025-04-04T19:25:15Z")
Windows 11 was OK for me up to the last major update where it tried to force Copilot on me and also did something weird with the display (periodically everything would skip back a fraction of a second and then replay - I mean everything - text I was typing, pages I was scrolling, mouse movement, video playback, etc. I tried completely reinstalling graphics drivers to no avail and also installing earlier versions. Nothing. My somewhat paranoid suspicion is that it was some remnant of the ‘recall’ feature that had been installed. It wasn’t a hardware issue because it doesn’t happen on the same machine under Linux. I was not especially unhappy with Microsoft or their products until this all happened, but it just made my work flow painful. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/89 "2025-04-04T20:07:46Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > The only thing I didn’t care for is the Start Menu. I didn’t like how it changed from 10. … I use a free product called Open Shell that allows you to choose a menu style going back to Windows 7. But then I’m a dinosaur who thinks hierarchically, so your M probably Vs. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/90 "2025-04-04T21:15:17Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > choose a menu style going back to Windows 7 If you need to go back even further, RetroBar lets you do: - System (Classic, XP, and Vista) - Watercolor - Windows 95-98 - Windows Me - Windows 2000 - Windows XP: - Windows Longhorn Aero - Windows Vista I think next meeting I have with the information security team I’ll be sure to bring a laptop “running” Windows 98, and see what happens. > **[GitHub - dremin/RetroBar: Classic Windows 95, 98, Me, 2000, XP, Vista...](https://github.com/dremin/RetroBar)** > > Classic Windows 95, 98, Me, 2000, XP, Vista taskbar for modern versions of Windows ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/91 "2025-04-04T21:19:40Z")
Also, just a general comment, this resistance to change from some people happens for every single update. I don’t know that it is always the same people, but it would not surprise me at all of people complaining about moving away from Windows 10 also complained about moving from XP to 10, or whatever. None of these updates were readily adopted because everyone new they would be great. They were all forced upon a large segment of users. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/92 "2025-04-04T22:32:47Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > I use a free product called Open Shell that allows you to choose a menu style going back to Windows 7. I actually installed that soon after upgrading. But it had some glitches in it and I generally didn’t care for it, so uninstalled it. (It may have conflicted with something else I had installed, I’m not really blaming the program.) It’s nice to mention that options like that exist for people who upgrade. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/93 "2025-04-04T22:37:15Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > It’s a fast quad-core i7 that reports a “Windows Experience Index” of 6.7 on a scale that has a maximum value of 7. (The only thing holding it back a bit is the integrated on-chip graphics, but since I’m not a gamer I couldn’t care less about graphics performance.) I’m not worried about performance and I’ve been comfortable with Adblock for years on Firefox and Edge. > > In other words, it’s so old that it still has a Windows Experience Index 😃 > > Comparing it to a modern i7, you are looking at about 1/2 the single threaded performance and 1/3 the multithreaded performance. In other words, still running Windows 7, which fact was established here a long time ago. But in terms of performance, it does absolutely everything I need it to do, and does it exceedingly well. As for “half the single-threaded performance”, maybe, but it’s probably **twice** the performance once you factor in the bloat of Windows 11 and its applications. For example, the absolute minimum memory requirement for Windows 11 is 4 GB. The minimum memory requirement for Windows 7 (32-bit) is 1 GB. The minimum memory requirement for Windows XP – a perfectly fine OS and arguably the best that Microsoft ever produced – was 64 MB (“Microsoft recommends 128 MB for best performance”). What do you get for all that extra hardware once it’s been saddled with Microsoft bloat? Nothing. Nada. Zilch. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2025, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/94 "2025-04-05T04:59:42Z")
> [@Apparently I'm going to be kicked off the boards (Discourse upcoming incompatibility){New cheap PC posts moved out}](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-going-to-be-kicked-off-the-boards-discourse-upcoming-incompatibility-new-cheap-pc-posts-moved-out/1016432/111): > > > [@Apparently I'm going to be kicked off the boards (Discourse upcoming incompatibility){New cheap PC posts moved out}](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-going-to-be-kicked-off-the-boards-discourse-upcoming-incompatibility-new-cheap-pc-posts-moved-out/1016432/108): > > > > Really? Explain why you can’t support stuff you already are supporting? An old tube TV was never able to get modern stuff. > > Yes, and outdated browsers and operating systems can’t get “modern stuff” either. > > When they switched to a digital signal for television, they switched to a digital signal. They no longer broadcast the old signal. I could not afford a new television at the time. Fortunately, the government issued discount coupons that allowed me to get a signal converter for my CRT television. Why did they stop supporting my old television? Replying to this here so as not to derail the “Site Feedback” thread. I’m not sure what you’re arguing with the television standards comment, but I think it’s a good example of the point I’m trying to make. The argument that some have been making is that you can’t expect “old” tech to support new features. But with television, when we say NTSC is “old” we mean that it was first deployed in **1941**. At that time, all televisions were black and white, and all used CRT tubes, so the NTSC broadcast standard was designed for black and white transmissions and optimized to prevent CRT flicker. When colour television came along, some very clever engineering adapted NTSC for colour television, and moreover, made it backwards compatible with older black and white television receivers. The same thing happened with the popularity of stereophonic sound – stereo could be received by sets so equipped, but it, too, was backwards compatible with older sets. It was when high definition came along that the ancient NTSC standard hit a brick wall. Broadcasting had to move to digital ATSC, and there was no way it could be backwards compatible any more, but even so, as you mention, converter boxes were available for those who couldn’t buy new TVs. My point is this. If television tech was treated the way we treat computer tech, **you’d have to throw out your TV and buy a new one every couple of years**. And there would be no converter boxes. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2025, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/95 "2025-04-05T05:23:10Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > My point is this. If television tech was treated the way we treat computer tech, **you’d have to throw out your TV and buy a new one every couple of years**. And there would be no converter boxes. Yes, that’s what it means to be a computer owner (and that’s how it has been for as long as home PCs were common). Moore’s Law dates back to 1965. > **[Moore's law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law)** > > Moore's law is the observation that the number of transistors in an integrated circuit (IC) doubles about every two years. Moore's law is an observation and projection of a historical trend. Rather than a law of physics, it is an empirical relationship. It is an experience-curve law, a type of law quantifying efficiency gains from experience in production. > The observation is named after Gordon Moore, the co-founder of Fairchild Semiconductor and Intel and former CEO of the latter, who in 1965... That’s just how the computer industry is. It’s exciting because things keep getting better so quickly, but the downsides are obvious in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2025, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/96 "2025-04-05T06:02:41Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > That’s just how the computer industry is. > > It’s exciting because things keep getting better so quickly, but the downsides are obvious in this thread. I can accept that to a degree. My main objection is that obsolescence often occurs for reasons that are unimportant or downright frivolous, or purely for business reasons. And those decisions are made by individuals who are either in a position to profit from them, or by developers who are so wrapped up in creating “features” that they don’t stop to think whether anyone wants or needs them. I think the history of Windows after XP, and especially after Windows 7, is a good example of “stuff no one needs, and other stuff that people actively hate”. Windows has become like the cars of the 1950s, where you were encouraged to buy the latest model because it had bigger tail fins that last year’s, and then buy a new one again because it had no tail fins at all. When Microsoft was developing Longhorn, which was eventually released as the disastrous Vista OS, they genuinely intended it to be as big an advance as XP had been, for example by introducing the WinFS relational storage system. As these advanced features were canceled one by one, Vista ended up being a bloated version of XP with very little that was actually useful. I’d be happy to keep up with the tech if it actually had something to offer – as I mentioned, I jumped right into Windows XP as a pre-release early adopter – but as far as I can see it doesn’t. I genuinely dread having to start using my new Windows 11 laptop. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2025, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/97 "2025-04-05T06:38:16Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > I’m still not sure why so many people are so dead set against upgrading to Windows 11. It is not like we are talking about Vista or ME here I can’t think of a good reason to prefer 11. After 7, I can’t remember a single worthwhile thing in 8, 10, or 11. If Microsoft didn’t force upgrades, I’d be surprised if anyone bothered. IMO 3.1 to 95 was a drastic leap forward. 95 to XP, or XP to 7, were also huge upgrades. 7 to 11 is a modest downgrade, with more ads, a more confusing UI, forced login, and lower performance. Why would anyone be _for_ that except that Microsoft holds their systems hostage otherwise? The Windowses haven’t gotten any better. Microsoft just got more greedy. Windows 10 was [supposed to be the last Windows version](https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/7/8568473/windows-10-last-version-of-windows), but they reneged on that. Not for their users’ sakes but for their investors. Why support a company like that? It’s planned obsolescence, not any actual improvement. Hardware has been overkill for the average home user for more than a decade or so now. Even Microsoft knows that, which is why they keep artificially limiting the hardware allowed to run 11. Many more computers could (and did) run it just fine if not for those artificial blocks. A few websites have gotten more bloated but otherwise there’s nothing that really requires that much horsepower. It’s all manufactured demand, not actual need, for most people. That’s marketing, not progress. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2025, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/98 "2025-04-05T06:46:06Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > I can’t think of a good reason to prefer 11. After 7, I can’t remember a single worthwhile thing in 8, 10, or 11. My sentiments exactly, thank you! > [@Reply](#): > > The Windowses haven’t gotten any better. Microsoft just got more greedy. This, too. 👍 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2025, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/99 "2025-04-05T07:28:04Z")
You may be right, but exceptions exist. I’ve spent my entire adult life deliberately trying _not_ to resist technical change. Computers in the workplace and home were not a thing at the start, and I have tried to reasonably embrace changes as they happened, especially after I started working in IT and saw the problems caused by technical debt, resistance to change, etc. I’ve used every version of windows, DOS before that and other non-x86 computers before that. While the rest of the world was hating windows 8, I just got on and used it, and it was fine. When windows 10 came along, I was a little sad to leave win 8.11, but I upgraded. When windows 11 came along, I upgraded and although I thought it was not an improvement on windows 10, it was OK. Then Microsoft got on its AI trajectory and started pushing useless bloatware into windows, with no way to turn it completely off. (plus they did a forced upsell on 365 which was just plain dishonest). Windows 11 just steadily descended into being laggy, bloated, and buggy and more inconvenient to use. Now you could argue that I’m just just too old now to be flexible and accepting of change any more, but as a counterpoint to that, I migrated my whole video editing workflow to linux and it’s going just fine. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2025, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577/100 "2025-04-05T07:44:23Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Now you could argue that I’m just just too old now to be flexible and accepting of change any more, but as a counterpoint to that, I migrated my whole video editing workflow to linux and it’s going just fine. Now that I’ve trashed Microsoft and recent versions of Windows, maybe in fairness I can trash Linux, too! 😉 My problem with Linux is summed up by the old expression “once bitten, twice shy”. Except my experience with Linux is more like “twice bitten” which tends to promote the attitude of “forever shy – never again!”. I won’t belabor the arguments I’ve already made elsewhere, but the brief gist of it is that every time I’ve ventured into Linux, it’s been a huge learning curve greatly exacerbated by searching for drivers for things that Windows either natively supports or that the manufacturer provides drivers for. Essentially the difference between Windows and Linux in my experience has been the difference between “just works” and “become your own IT guru”. Furthermore – and this is not a knock against Linux, just a fact – is that I’ve had so much experience with Windows that in some sense I actually am a kind of minor guru, whereas I know virtually nothing about Linux. And knowing virtually nothing about an OS that is guaranteed to require a great deal of technically knowledgeable tinkering is just a disaster in the making. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cheap-pc-for-windows-11-or-supporting-discourse-discussion-also-obsoleting-browsers-op-systems/1016577.md?page=6)