# New cock-up theory on Russia and Trump/Clinton **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 3, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314 "2017-03-03T17:03:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/1 "2017-03-03T17:03:49Z")
Watched this last night and it’s just come online- it’s 4 minutes long. Basic idea is Russia wanted only to undermine Clinton’s legitimacy and to cause here domestic distractions. At no point did Russia support Trump. Part of the rationale: Russia has always known where the red lines were with the West, the West was predictable and Putin could play ‘threshold war’. Not so with Trump, Trump plays the game more like the Russians i.e. more unpredictably. Trump is a mistake. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/brkQpH1CGlo/maxresdefault.jpg "What is the Russian connection with America? - BBC Newsnight") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brkQpH1CGlo) ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/2 "2017-03-03T17:06:54Z")
p.s. the speaker is Igor Sutyagin: [Igor - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor) Sutyagin, he would seem to not be a Russian asset: > [@](#): > > Sutyagin spent 11 years in prison on espionage charges and was released by Russia in 2010 in exchange for the release of a group of spies arrested in the United States. > > As of 2014, Sutyagin is a Research Fellow at the Royal United Services Institute for Defence and Security Studies in London ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/3 "2017-03-03T17:09:55Z")
Part of it, sure. Bigger part is that Hillary was likely to keep sanctions in place, and Putin’s chances of breathing life back into his Exxon deal would be boned. Oil. Its about the oil. Remember that Republican Party platform about helping Ukraine resist Russia? How it mysteriously disappeared without leaving any fingerprints? Spontaneous combustion, poof! Gone! And nobody did it, it just happened! ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/4 "2017-03-03T17:16:17Z")
Nobody knew superpower relations were so complicated! ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/5 "2017-03-03T17:37:15Z")
Not that new… To quote myself from 12/11/16: > [@Washington Post: Russian propaganda effort helped spread ‘fake news’ during election, experts say](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-post-russian-propaganda-effort-helped-spread-fake-news-during-election-experts-say/772945/183): > > IMHO, the most believable theory is that the Russians thought Clinton was going to win, so took the opportunity to start weakening her while simultaneously undermining confidence in our elections and democracy. Trump, also expecting defeat, was coincidentally doing the same thing because he’s a vile, conceited asshole. No collusion necessary. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/6 "2017-03-03T17:49:05Z")
Kind of makes a Titanic-sized hole in a bunch of the current political narratives on the Hill … and it certainly gives Trump some space … In other news, Voltaire wins the banana! ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/7 "2017-03-03T17:55:58Z")
I think [Cenk Uygur](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr-gL7forGQ) has a good take on this. Follow the money. “Give me money, sanctions get lifted”. The deal was money, pure and simple. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/8 "2017-03-03T18:25:13Z")
I don’t doubt that Trump benefited from Russian interference, sure, I buy that. But did Putin collude with Il Douche, conspire with a notorious blabbermouth about something sooper seekrit? That one is harder to choke down. Far easier to let him think he won legit, and let his friendly advisers do the grunt work on dismantling the sanctions. And it was cheap. Hackers don’t cost money, you catch 'em and offer them the happy prospect of continuing to breathe, they cooperate. If the only result is to embarrass and undermine Hillary, he spent ten cents on a lottery ticket and won a car. If it means Trump wins, its the same ten cents, but he won a swimming pool full of money. Why would he risk telling Trump about it? Trump thinks he’s a winner, you want to risk all that by telling him something different? Trump is innocent of conspiracy because he’s too stupid to be guilty. Or Putin is a dumbass who conspired, betrayed and backstabbed his way to the top of the KGB by trusting people who can’t keep their mouth shut. Place your bets! ---
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/9 "2017-03-03T19:24:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Remember that Republican Party platform about helping Ukraine resist Russia? How it mysteriously disappeared without leaving any fingerprints? Spontaneous combustion, poof! Gone! And nobody did it, it just happened! Yeah, [about that.](http://www.businessinsider.com/jd-gordon-trump-adviser-ukraine-rnc-2017-3) I think they may have identified a few freakishly-small fingerprints. “According to CNN’s Jim Acosta, however, [J.D.] Gordon said that at the RNC he and others “advocated for the GOP platform to include language against arming Ukrainians against pro-Russian rebels” because “this was in line with Trump’s views, expressed at a March national security meeting at the unfinished Trump hotel” in Washington, DC.” The cherry on that sundae? The meeting was chaired by the Honorable Jeff Sessions. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/10 "2017-03-03T20:00:09Z")
But this needs to explain why even before Russia’s shenanigans regarding the hacking came to light Trump seemed to be pro Putin. I suppose it could be a coincidence,but it seems doubtful, particularly for a candidate running as a Republican where appearing strong against our traditional global rival would seem to be a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/11 "2017-03-03T20:03:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I don’t doubt that Trump benefited from Russian interference, sure, I buy that. But did Putin collude with Il Douche, conspire with a notorious blabbermouth about something sooper seekrit? That one is harder to choke down. Far easier to let him think he won legit, and let his friendly advisers do the grunt work on dismantling the sanctions. > > And it was cheap. Hackers don’t cost money, you catch 'em and offer them the happy prospect of continuing to breathe, they cooperate. If the only result is to embarrass and undermine Hillary, he spent ten cents on a lottery ticket and won a car. If it means Trump wins, its the same ten cents, but he won a swimming pool full of money. > > Why would he risk telling Trump about it? Trump thinks he’s a winner, you want to risk all that by telling him something different? > > Trump is innocent of conspiracy because he’s too stupid to be guilty. Or Putin is a dumbass who conspired, betrayed and backstabbed his way to the top of the KGB by trusting people who can’t keep their mouth shut. Place your bets! But this needs to explain why even before Russia’s shenanigans regarding the hacking came to light Trump seemed to be pro Putin. I suppose it could be a coincidence,but it seems doubtful, particularly for a candidate running as a Republican where appearing strong against our traditional global rival would seem to be a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/12 "2017-03-03T20:15:16Z")
I’m pretty sure Vlad’s prime directive is to keep breathing, which is impeded by a mushroom cloud over the Kremlin. From that point of view _any_ of the repulsive Republican candidates would be a safe bet — Bush, Ryan, Walker, Christie et al may be appalling from a domestic point of view but they are not purely stupid enough to double-dog-dare other nuclear powers to assert primacy. _“Look what I did to Gaddafi ! Feeling lucky, punk ? I am woman ! Go on, try and resist me, just **try** , Russian pig.”_ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/13 "2017-03-03T20:21:06Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Not that new… To quote myself from 12/11/16: You beat me to it back then – but, FWIW, I heard it somewhere _else_ back then: > [@"Is it that the Dems don't understand white, working-class America?" No, that's not it](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-that-the-dems-dont-understand-white-working-class-america-no-thats-not-it/773291/455): > > FWIW, one of the talking heads on the teevee was opining this past week that the Russians – like virtually everyone else, pollsters and bookies and so on – figured Hillary was going to win; and figured it’d be in Russia’s best interest if she won a bruising contest that left her as weak as possible vis-a-vis the opposition that’d naturally try to block her at every turn the way they did Obama. > > If so, then they wanted – or _were resigned to_ – a Clinton presidency, and merely wanted her to take office with a minimal mandate amidst bad publicity. Point being, yeah, not new. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/14 "2017-03-03T23:27:11Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > But this needs to explain why even before Russia’s shenanigans regarding the hacking came to light Trump seemed to be pro Putin. I suppose it could be a coincidence,but it seems doubtful, particularly for a candidate running as a Republican where appearing strong against our traditional global rival would seem to be a good thing. Trump is always pre-Putin. Vladimir Putin is the one and only person who has Trump’s full admiration and cooperation. Trump will sometimes pretend that he doesn’t know who Putin is, but even then, he’s always respectful. Donald, who has no loyalty to anyone, is 100% loyal to Vlad. I think Donald is afraid of Vlad, and Vlad is using him as an unwitting Russian agent, for his (Vlad’s) own money and power. I think Vlad will have Donald killed if Donald gets to be too loose-lipped, and I believe Donald knows it. I think this fits the behavior of the people involved more than suggesting that Putin wasn’t really trying to do what he deliberately did. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/15 "2017-03-04T07:52:43Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Trump is always pre-Putin. Vladimir Putin is the one and only person who has Trump’s full admiration and cooperation. Trump will sometimes pretend that he doesn’t know who Putin is, but even then, he’s always respectful. > > Donald, who has no loyalty to anyone, is 100% loyal to Vlad. > > I think Donald is afraid of Vlad, and Vlad is using him as an unwitting Russian agent, for his (Vlad’s) own money and power. I think Vlad will have Donald killed if Donald gets to be too loose-lipped, and I believe Donald knows it. > > I think this fits the behavior of the people involved more than suggesting that Putin wasn’t really trying to do what he deliberately did. What is it that Putin “deliberately did” because 17 US agencies are stilla little short on evidence? > [@Merneith](#): > > Donald, who has no loyalty to anyone, is 100% loyal to Vlad. Is he. Is this something in your head? ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/16 "2017-03-04T09:20:14Z")
And _meanwhile_, bets are being taken in the diplomatic community as to which next Russian Ambassador’s turn is next. Four down in two months, where _will_ the fickle finger of fate strike next ? Along with the ex-Red Army Choir hitting the sea. Vlad must feel he’s under siege. Maybe Mr. Seagal, now Russian, can offer protection… Or maybe Trumpo can stand them down. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/17 "2017-03-04T10:45:29Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > What is it that Putin “deliberately did” because 17 US agencies are stilla little short on evidence? Used the Kremlin hacking and propaganda talents to acquire information and release them to influence the US election in Donald Trump’s favor. Here’s NY Times article on it. > **[Intelligence Report on Russian Hacking (Published 2017)](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/06/us/politics/document-russia-hacking-report-intelligence-agencies.html)** > > The Office of the Director of National Intelligence released on Friday a report that detailed what it called a Russian campaign to influence the election. The report is the unclassified summary of a highly sensitive assessment from American... **Intelligence Report on Russian Hacking** > [@NYT](#): > > The Office of the Director of National Intelligence released on Friday a report that detailed what it called a Russian campaign to influence the election. The report is the unclassified summary of a highly sensitive assessment from American intelligence and law enforcement agencies. It’s incorrect to say that the various US intelligence agencies have no evidence. They don’t have enough unclassified evidence that they want to talk about publicly, atm, which is a different matter. > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Is he. Is this something in your head? Nope. You’re welcome to try and prove me wrong though. All you have to do is find video of Donald insulting Vladimir Putin. Good luck with that. Of course, Donald’s connections with Russia are of long standing ([My thread from a year ago about Donald & Vlad](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=799418)details some of it) and it’s clear that Donald’s administration is full of people having secret meetings with Russian pols, so it’s a bit much to insist that it’s all just a funny coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/18 "2017-03-04T14:11:50Z")
Oddly enough, acquiring information however obtained from foreign entities is neither criminal nor unethical. Neither is releasing it, except for monetary gain. You’d think most voters and the chattering classes would **welcome** as much information available before the People Choose. Not as if they think voters are mugs. And not that it is particularly likely it was the Russians who took the information to give to Wikileaks. Mr. Podesta fell on his sword and blamed his own stupidity ( although it wasn’t that egregious an error, and most of us have done worse than that he was alleged to have committed ); but it is evident the DNC was wholly incompetent at basic security — which gave no confidence in the Democrats and their singularly incompetent candidate, who made a lifelong career of giving unnecessary hostages to fortune — and practically any hacker could have struck the motherlode. The reasons more breaches don’t occur with most firms, are a/ they have nothing to hide b/ no hacker suspects they are so bad at security. The real dark amusement to the Gods lies in the fact the DNC used public servers ( GMail ? _Really_ ? ) no doubt to cheap out, whilst old Hil used her own private server when she should have used ( provided ) government servers, no doubt out of paranoia. Of course they both got wacked. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/19 "2017-03-04T17:40:48Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Oddly enough, acquiring information h/owever obtained from foreign entities is neither criminal nor unethical. > > Neither is releasing it, except for monetary gain. So you’re saying that even though it would be illegal for me to hack DNC servers it’s perfectly legal for Russian agents to do so? Do you think an “IANAL” might have been a good thing to prefix that statement? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314/20 "2017-03-04T17:44:20Z")
Well, actually, yeah. Probably illegal in America, but they don’t have to be here to do it. (TG, IANAL) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-cock-up-theory-on-russia-and-trump-clinton/781314.md?page=2)