Well:
The SNP still claim that there’s loads of oil left, while Norway is preparing for supplies to run out.
OK, so I’m simplifying and exaggerating the economic divide, but exclude Edinburgh and much of Scotland is only comparable to northern England at best.
And no, I don’t see the SNP as a well-run party in any way.
Excuse me, which Central Asian countries, specifically? Where is there a secessionist movement in that region? There is a civil war in Tajikistan, but it isn’t secessionist: the rebels want to take over all of Tajikistan, not divide it. (They’d agreed to a cease-fire, last I heard.) The same with the Taliban remnants still fighting in Afghanistan (funny how you never hear about that on the news…); they want the whole country, not part of it. In Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, and Iran, there are no secessionist movements. The other country that borders on Afghanistan is Pakistan. There has been some amount of separatist discontent in the provinces of Sindh and Baluchistan, but then that’s not exactly “Central Asia.” The Pashtun separatist sentiment in the Northwest Frontier Province is to join it with Afghanistan, not to make a separate country.
So, frankly, I have no idea of what you could be talking about.
Rebels trying to take over an entire country are unlikely to succeed. But they do cause a danger of fragmentation - OK, so this wouldn’t result in any sovereign states being created, so I guess I’m overstating the case.
Not only is there still loads and loads of oil left, but we are extremely well-off in renewable energy for when the oil runs out. See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/scotland/4499957.stm
Whether you think the SNP is well-run or not is immaterial. Considering that they do not exist as a party where you live, I wonder where your experience of the way the party is run comes from. TV?
Exclude London and most of England is only comparable to northern England at best. Especially the northern bits. Scotland would be a lot richer if we weren’t being dragged down by the neighbours. The same arguments were used to ‘prove’ that Ireland could never go it alone. They seem to be doing ok, wouldn’t you say?
Other even smaller countries than Scotland like Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia are enjoying the benefits of independence from dominating neighbours. It is certainly arguable that Scotland could too.
I have met Alex Salmond and he impresses me as the political leader with by far the most integrity out of the current bunch.
And how could you not like someone who looks so much like Shrek?!
I am not saying I am going to vote SNP on Thursday; I never have done up until now. But I could not let your misleading one sided comment stand.
Don’t worry, when we go, we’ll let you keep the Trident fleet. Otherwise an independent Scotland would instantly be the world’s fifth biggest nuclear power. We would find that embarrassing.
But cheap energy, lower taxes (without a huge military fighting in frequent wars) and an end to the English phobia against mainland Europe stopping us from playing our historical part in Europe; it sounds good to me.
It isn’t going to happen, guinnog. The SNP are a joke.
Just as well, seeing as one of the SNP’s main policies is a nuclear free Scotland.
The most likely new independent countries in my view will result from the probable division of “Serbia and Montenegro” into fully-independent republics of Serbia and Montenegro, and possibly an internationally-recognised independent Kosovo (part of Serbia currently under temporary UN administration). The subject is currently “frozen” until 2006, but there is every reason to think that a majority in Montenegro will approve a referendum for full independence next year.
Yep, when wind power is financially viable as a main source of export energy, it could make Scotland rich. I don’t see that happening in 20 years (re. the OP).
Yeah, because nobody in England ever pays attention to any Scottish affairs, nor has many Scottish colleagues & friends. Including one who can tell you of being asked to leave an SNP meeting (i.e. he was in the pub where it was being held), because he was ‘English’. (He’s Hebridean, born & bred - but has an English parent).
I love this duality, commonly used by the SNP. On the one hand they’re telling us of the natural wealth of Scotland, if only the English weren’t leeching it away … and then compare the potential for Scotland to countries previously or currently being helped out of poverty by the EU. You need to decide one way or the other, whether Scotland’s rich, or whether it needs outside help to become rich.
Well, the three examples I gave are all EU members so I suppose they have every right to be helped by the EU. Ireland got a lot of help from this source as well through the 70s and 80s. It might be that Scotland would require the same help and if we met the criteria then I would have no qualms about accepting such help. This is in fact one of the stated aims of the EU.
I see no ambiguity in the view that Scotland is a resource-rich country currently being bled dry of its resources by its larger neighbour. I see nothing impossible in the idea of Scottish independence within the EU. Note that I am not particularly a supporter of this, but to deny it is a valid aspiration seems strange.
There is no need to wait for 20 years to take advantage of renewable energy, by the way. Scotland already produces more than England does. 1,391.0 MW out of a UK total of 2,437.0 MW (2000 figures). The status quo, where dangerous time-expired nuclear stations and filthy polluting coal stations, both predominantly in Scotland or N England, provide cheap energy for the Home Counties, is untenable.
I was sorry to hear about your friend. Here in Edinburgh that would not have happened. Accept that it is a consequence of hundreds of years of oppression. This sometimes gives rise to silly behaviour like your friend says he experienced. All the same, I would think that I, as someone who lives here, would have at least as valid a view on the issue of independence as somebody from another country, but with ‘many Scottish colleagues & friends’. Do you spend much time in Scotland with your many colleagues and friends here? If you did, that might give your views a little more weight with me! Otherwise it seems awfully close to a ‘some of my best friends are Jewish’ kind of disclaimer, to a rather biassed post (message number 17) which contained several inaccuracies. As I pointed out, and as you have not so far refuted.
Chechnya is not the only republic to declare its independence from Russia. The Sakha Republic (formerly Yakutia, it’s in northeastern Siberia) and Tatarstan (in the middle of the east side of European Russia) have also “declared independence,” albeit fully aware that there isn’t a thing they can do about it.
I’m not denying it as a valid aspiration. I’m denying it as a valid aspiration under the SNP, and within 20 years.
And Ireland got a helluva lot of help, because it was one of very few countries that were really ‘poor’ by western Europe standards. Now, the EU has plenty of members far poorer in every way than Scotland.
And leaving aside oil, which evidently we won’t agree on re. sustainability, what resources are being ‘bled dry’? As far as I can see, the massive resources are being ignored.
Wrong. There’s more nuclear stations in the south - and guess where the one with the longest lifespan is?
I hope such silly simplistic language is a joke. I laughed, anyway.
I’ve conceded that Scotland is a poorer (not poorest) part of the UK. You’ve given no firm evidence as to the long-term viablity of the SNP’s oil-based economy. Their hopelessness as a serious political force hasn’t been tackled by either of us, other than anecdotally. Any number of opinion polls could show that independence isn’t a big issue. What else is there to refute?
That’s because no Scots live in Edinburgh 
Quick retracion: you’re right, the still-operating nuclear stations are predominantly northern & Scottish. But still, we’re already importing energy, to the UK as a whole. Is it really viable for Scotland to become energy-self-sufficient? (And without an embarrassing increase in CO2 emmission? 
)
Tut tut. We frown on jokes that are that obvious. 
Scotland is a net exporter of electricity, through the interconnectors to Ireland and England. It is wrong to think of “the UK as a whole” from the point of view of electricity, as the Scottish generation and transmission system are not effectively integrated with those of England and Wales. Because electricity production in Scotland (mainly nuclear and hydro) is cheaper than in England and Wales, electricity is exported. The effective limit on what can be exported through the Anglo-Scottish interconnector is imposed by the transmission system in the north of England.
As for oil, since pretty much all the UK’s oil is landed at Sullom Voe and other Scottish terminals, I think it’s safe to say that Scotland is plenty self-sufficient in oil!
Yes, but the point is that that self sufficiency through oil may not last for very long.
I rather liked it actually! Just as I like the cosmopolitanism of Edinburgh and that of this board.
Thanks for your retraction. It really is. Offshore wind farms are going to be big in the near future. One is operating off Wales just now, AFAIK the first in the UK. And we have a lot of sea and a lot of wind! And unlike the oil, of course, it isn’t going to run out. Photovoltaics can replace oil wells in hot countries. Hydro and possibly geothermal are going to pump out hydrogen from seawater so we won’t have to fight any more wars for oil. We’ll be fighting for deserts and stormy seas instead! But seriously, there is enough energy out there to keep us all in the style we are used to, if we simply use existing technology and practise efficiency in transport.
Even if we just do nothing, rising oil costs as the oil supply declines (worldwide extraction is now thought to have passed its peak) and demand increases will make cutting edge fuels like H2 more economically attractive in the future. The near future. We should be investing more in it now.
On a more personal note, nationalistic language and thought processes do tend to be simplistic. I am not much of a nationalist and deplore the tendency of some Scots to choose hatred of the historical oppressor above something more positive in their personal world-views. That wasn’t me talking, that was me trying to infer the motives of your friend’s assailants. Personally, some of my best friends are English. Honest.
I just had to pull you up for poo-pooing the very concept of Scottish independence. Certainly in energy terms we could do it now, and more, not less so in the future. Whether the SNP as currently constituted are the best vehicle to take us there, and whether it is even a good place to go, are political questions which do not need to concern us here. Though, as I mentioned, Salmond seems to me a decent enough fellow. For a politician.
I could never hold a grudge against the English. They make such bloody good beer.
Don’t know if it’s the first, but I’m pretty sure Scroby Sands, off Norfolk, is the biggest.
And some of my Scottish friends are teetotal
I didn’t do that. I said that I do not envisage an independant Scotland in 20 years time.
Same could be said of that nice Mr Kennedy. We’ll see what happens on Thursday…
You sure you don’t have some Saxon blood in you somewhere?!