# New country established by fugitive guru from India. How is this going to play out? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 5, 2019, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-country-established-by-fugitive-guru-from-india-how-is-this-going-to-play-out/844421 "2019-12-05T18:48:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-country-established-by-fugitive-guru-from-india-how-is-this-going-to-play-out/844421/41 "2019-12-17T16:48:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Der Trihs** : > > Yes. This sort of thing has happened a fair number of times before, and such “micronations” last pretty much only as long as the actual nation that claims the territory in question doesn’t care enough to step in and squash them. There’s one peculiar case where an American founded a micronation somewhere in Africa, in territory disputed by two countries. What makes that one odd is that each country claims it’s the other’s territory. Apparently, it’s in the middle of nowhere, and a pain in the neck to maintain control over. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-country-established-by-fugitive-guru-from-india-how-is-this-going-to-play-out/844421/42 "2019-12-17T17:23:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There’s one peculiar case where an American founded a micronation somewhere in Africa, in territory disputed by two countries. What makes that one odd is that each country claims it’s the other’s territory. Apparently, it’s in the middle of nowhere, and a pain in the neck to maintain control over. Huh. That sounds like one that could be successful. If both countries disclaim it, then it has a good start on a claim to sovereignty. The operative part of “it’s not mine, it’s yours,” is the “it’s not mine” part. The big question with all such claims though, is what happens when conflict arises. That is the test. I can declare my backyard to be Catistan, and then go about my life as usual, and neither my state nor the US will care. But if I declare it to be Catistan, stop paying taxes, start stockpiling weapons and annexing territory from my neighbors or manufacturing illegal (outside of Catistan) substances, Catistan will stop being a thing pretty quickly. ETA: This is why “defensive indifference” may get you left alone for a while, but I don’t think it actually leads to sovereignty. You either need positive acceptance, or to win in conflict to show sovereignty. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-country-established-by-fugitive-guru-from-india-how-is-this-going-to-play-out/844421/43 "2019-12-17T17:29:07Z")
Anyone interested in this thread might enjoy [one of my favorite books.](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/234337.Island) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-country-established-by-fugitive-guru-from-india-how-is-this-going-to-play-out/844421/44 "2019-12-17T17:47:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There’s one peculiar case where an American founded a micronation somewhere in Africa, in territory disputed by two countries. What makes that one odd is that each country claims it’s the other’s territory. Apparently, it’s in the middle of nowhere, and a pain in the neck to maintain control over. > [@eschrodinger](#): > > Huh. That sounds like one that could be successful. If both countries disclaim it, then it has a good start on a claim to sovereignty. The operative part of “it’s not mine, it’s yours,” is the “it’s not mine” part. The big question with all such claims though, is what happens when conflict arises. That is the test. I can declare my backyard to be Catistan, and then go about my life as usual, and neither my state nor the US will care. But if I declare it to be Catistan, stop paying taxes, start stockpiling weapons and annexing territory from my neighbors or manufacturing illegal (outside of Catistan) substances, Catistan will stop being a thing pretty quickly. > > ETA: This is why “defensive indifference” may get you left alone for a while, but I don’t think it actually leads to sovereignty. You either need positive acceptance, or to win in conflict to show sovereignty. It’s Bir Tawil but it is more complicated than that. Due to two different maps being drawn during the British Protectorate era there are two claims to Bir Tawil and the Halayib Triangle, one is Egypt’s and the other is the Sudan’s. The claims are in an exclusive or (XOR) relationship so that if you have one region you don’t have the other. Bir Tawil is a worthless piece of crap land while the Halayib Triangle is (relatively) fertile coastal land. Egypt claims the 1899 map giving them the Triangle and the Sudan Bir Tawil. Sudan claims the 1902 map giving them the Triangle and Egypt Bir Tawil thus if either country claims Bir Tawil then they are implicitly accepting the other country’s claim and will give them the valuable Halayib Triangle. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-country-established-by-fugitive-guru-from-india-how-is-this-going-to-play-out/844421/45 "2019-12-17T21:13:11Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Dude gets a private island “without borders” and his adoring fans (probably a couple of thousand anyway) claim they are really residents of whereverthefuckitis, send him $100 a month or what ever the rate is for the most recent god for the privilege or claiming whereverthefuckitis is where they really live. > > Pretty good scam. It has the smell of a Hindu-oriented sovereign citizenship con job. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-country-established-by-fugitive-guru-from-india-how-is-this-going-to-play-out/844421/46 "2019-12-22T16:50:51Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Your “country” is a country when other countries agree you’re a country. > > Exhibit 1: “[The Principality of Sealand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand)”. > [@Telemark](#): > > It’s not a country if it doesn’t have its own [top level domain](https://www.worldstandards.eu/other/tlds/). > [@Alessan](#): > > You’re country when other countries won’t or can’t stop you from acting like a country. Agreement is a bonus. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yup. ISIS was, for a period, a country carved out of portions of Iraq and Syria through brute force. They weren’t going to get UN recognition or anything, but for the people living within their borders, UN recognition wasn’t really a factor. They were effectively being governed by ISIS. > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > “You can’t be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer.” - Frank Zappa > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Yep. It really boils down to two steps. > > 1. Declare yourself a sovereign nation. > 2. Make it stick. > > I know that seems flip but that’s all it takes. Assert your sovereignty against all comers - likely the last government to consider itself sovereign over that piece of land - and hope for recognition from other governments. > > If this nation manages to remain sovereign for a number of years against the wishes of the Ecuadoran government then it can be considered to have worked. It might achieve that through diplomatic or military means. > > It could even achieve it through a lack of concern from others. There’s a thing in baseball where, if a runner steals a base and the pitching team doesn’t contest it the runner doesn’t get credit for the act and the movement is considered to have been achieved through ‘defensive indifference’. It’s possible to achieve sovereignty through the same thing. If Ecuador basically says, ‘Who the hell cares? Knock yourself out.’ then voila! It’s a country with all the headaches and rights that entails. [The Master speaks.](https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/783/how-do-i-go-about-starting-my-own-country/) (I happen to be intimately familiar with the person who asked the question.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-country-established-by-fugitive-guru-from-india-how-is-this-going-to-play-out/844421.md?page=2)