# New DC Universe = New Coke? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 31, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897 "2011-05-31T21:17:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/121 "2011-06-09T11:29:31Z")
For me, Hawk and Dove only worked one and a half times, for maybe a total of 25 issues. That’s not a good record considering they’ve been around for like 40 years The problem is the book only works if Hawk and Dove are balanced as characters. Most writers just make Hawk a stupid asshole and Dove the voice of pure, sweet reason and a brilliant fighter. This makes the book less interesting. Ditko’s version was interesting, since he created both Hawk and Dove as totally self-absorbed assholes. Don/Dove was a total wimp, and a whiney one–non violence is nice and all, but you can’t be proactive with it: if someone’s committing armed robbery, this is not a good time to sit down and passively resist until they let themselves be arrested. And then, when his techniques didn’t work, Don would just whine. Hawk was the poster boy for Anger Management. Their father (a judge) was the hero of the book saying that both of the extremes were incorrect. (Also, it was very clear that despite trying his best to write a balanced book, Ditko’s sympathies obviously were with Hawk) The Kessel’s version of the book (the one Liefield drew the first miniseries of) with Dawn worked beautifully because, unlike every other writer who’s ever touched the characters, they showed how Hawk had strengths AND weaknesses and _so did Dove_. Dove would get caught up in esoteric moral quandries and Hawk would just shrug and kick ass. Hawk would get pissed and do the bull-in-the-china-shop routine and Dove would have to repair the damage. To me, except for, say, those first 25 issues or so of the Kessel run (heh) no-one’s ever gotten the balance right and even a fantastic author like Gail Simone (possibly DC’s best current writer) can’t get Hawk & Dove right (Hawk is a stupid, angry berzerker, Dove is a calm voice of pure reason and an elegant fighter. Again, unbalanced-why does she need him?). The worst (IMO) iteration of Hawk and Dove was that stupid mini-series from the…what, mid '90s? She’s a Pissed Off Military type. He’s a stoned slacker guitar player. They both have wings. Together, they fight crime. The only two “reimaginings” that I can think of that were ignored as quickly were the terrible Zatanna-Gets-Gothed (and a wand) series and Byrne’s rewrite of Spider-Man’s origin. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/122 "2011-06-09T13:28:02Z")
7 more announcements, just leaving six unknowns. [Welcome To The Edge | DC](http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/09/welcome-to-the-edge/) - War and Western titles. Superman, Action, Supergirl, and Justice Society should be four of the remaining six… ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/123 "2011-06-09T14:17:24Z")
Hrum. Y’know, looking at all the various covers, I wonder if despite Dick going back to being Nightwing, there might not still be two Batmen - neither of the points that make me wonder that are persuasive - he’s got 4 titles of his own, plus he’s in 2/3 Justice Leagues (not terribly persuasive - not too far off his status at various points in the past), and his costume is noticeably different in the JLI cover compared to JLA and the one Batbook where we’re given a good look (again, not persuasive - it’s not MAJOR differences, so it could just be Lopresti interpreting it slightly differently than Lee, whereas Capullo matches). Probably not, but it’s a thought. (On a different Justice League note…I notice…JLDark are all characters who’ve headlined Vertigo titles at one point or another…sort of, as the Vertigo Deadman was kind of unrelated… Kind of a lot unrelated. Still…pretty neat theme it’s got going on, there.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/124 "2011-06-09T14:47:32Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > 7 more announcements, just leaving six unknowns. > [Welcome To The Edge | DC](http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/09/welcome-to-the-edge/) - War and Western titles. Stormwatch? Blackhawk? Sgt. Freakin’ Rock? O.k.-I’m in. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/125 "2011-06-09T15:15:39Z")
John Constantine as a member of Justice League anything is just wrong wrong wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/126 "2011-06-09T15:22:27Z")
Yeah, while some of this strikes me as a desperate “Throw everything against the wall and see if something…_anything_ sticks”, I love the idea of Martian Manhunter in The Authority (or Stormwatch). I’m intrigued. I wonder if the reason (other than the obvious sales ones) that this isn’t a clean reboot is that they’re sick of having to tell the same stories over and over, and if you reboot from day one/clean slate, you kinda have to.\* How many times can you retell the “Superman’s first day in Metropolis” story or the “Batman rescues Dick Grayson” story? \*Ultimate Spider-Man seems to be the one exception to this rule. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/127 "2011-06-09T21:06:13Z")
> [@DC](#): > > Also, DiDio confirmed that cult-favorite character Ambush Bug won’t initially be part of the post-Flashpoint DC Universe. > > “We have a lot of fun working with Ambush Bug, but we think he might be left in one of the other 52 different universes right now. We don’t expect to see him any time soon I the new DCU,” DiDio said. I changed my mind. DC can go suck eggs. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/128 "2011-06-09T23:08:02Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > 7 more announcements, just leaving six unknowns. > [Welcome To The Edge | DC](http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/09/welcome-to-the-edge/) - War and Western titles. Putting Gotham together with Jonah Hex offends me. I think of Gotham as East Coast. Did a Brit conceive of this, or just a pig-ignorant Yank? And DiDio just can’t resist screwing up OMAC again, can he? What is with him & that trademark? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/129 "2011-06-09T23:48:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I changed my mind. > DC can go suck eggs. No Ambush Bug? They are dead to me. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/130 "2011-06-10T00:00:20Z")
When did The Authority become part of the DC-verse? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/131 "2011-06-10T00:49:15Z")
It’s been part of the Multiverse since the Multiverse was reestablished. (Earth 50.) The relaunch will be what folds it into the main universe. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/132 "2011-06-10T02:01:21Z")
Announcements for Suicide Squad and Blue Beetle are up, leaving only four - which would presumably include Action, and Superman. We’ve had leaks about a Supergirl title, and rumors of Superboy and JSA… Judging from the talent selected and the costume designs, DC has decided that in five years, it wants to be as big as Image Comics. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/133 "2011-06-10T13:02:35Z")
[Superman, Supergirl, Superboy](http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/09/dc-relaunch-a-brand-new-look-for-superman-supergirl-and-superboy/) And apparently Morrison is on Action. I thought I’d seen that there was no JSA book announced out of the 52. Which isn’t too surprising, since the JSA has basically been run into the ground since Johns left. Anyway, Kara’s peakaboo-knee boots looks stupid; rest of the costume is okay, mostly. And looks like they’ve assed up Kon – cyborg Superboy, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/134 "2011-06-10T13:22:47Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > [Superman, Supergirl, Superboy](http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/09/dc-relaunch-a-brand-new-look-for-superman-supergirl-and-superboy/) > > And apparently Morrison is on Action. I thought I’d seen that there was no JSA book announced out of the 52. Which isn’t too surprising, since the JSA has basically been run into the ground since Johns left. > > Anyway, Kara’s peakaboo-knee boots looks stupid; rest of the costume is okay, mostly. And looks like they’ve assed up Kon – cyborg Superboy, maybe? I’d heard somewhere that we WERE getting JSA - specifically, that someone other than Mark Guggenheim would be writing it. I guess not! ---
**Author:** ![Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ian_D.Bergkamp)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/135 "2011-06-10T13:52:29Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Anyway, Kara’s peakaboo-knee boots looks stupid; rest of the costume is okay, mostly. I find it odd that, instead of shorts or a skirt, her costume includes a red patch over her crotch. Curious design choice, that. And it’s too bad there’s no JSA title. That’s the one I would’ve been most interested in. ---
**Author:** ![markm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@markm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/136 "2011-06-10T14:30:32Z")
A lot of these make me think of Marvel in the mid-90’s or Image Comics (not surprising, when you see the names involved, but still…) and that’s not a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/137 "2011-06-10T15:57:37Z")
> [@I'm Not Dennis Bergkamp](#): > > I find it odd that, instead of shorts or a skirt, her costume includes a red patch over her crotch. Curious design choice, that. I thought it even odder that the red patch… is basically in the shape of the El “S” crest (with the same shape above as a pseudo-buckle. even though she has no belt). Protecting her supergirly virtue, I guess. I think I’d read the “hey, no JSA” comment on the [RPG.net](http://RPG.net) thread. Which I can’t access from work (because it’s a “games” site). People over there had heard the JSA rumor, but counting up the titles announced left no empty slot for the JSA. I wonder if this retcon/reboot isn’t going to eliminate the confusion of two Flashes, Green Lanterns of two origins, and the Power Girl/Supergirl niche overlap. They’re trying to simplify the DCU for new readers, and probably think a line of explanation text (“Power Girl is the Supergirl of an alternate Earth”) is too much. Characters that don’t overlap niches with established characters – like, Mr. Terrific, or Stargirl – will show up somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/138 "2011-06-10T16:04:46Z")
It took Supes _how_ long to realize the underwear goes on the inside? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/139 "2011-06-10T16:20:48Z")
DC is apparently going to be doing a TV ad push for this relaunch. That will be interesting to see. An interview at Newsarama with incoming Titans artist Brett Booth (which does not contain an apology for the horrible costumes, sadly) clears up one point I was wondering about - the Kid Flash depicted there (with red hair, d’oh) is Bart. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897/140 "2011-06-10T21:30:01Z")
Except none of the Titans are the versions we knew, anyway. Why not just give them new names? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-dc-universe-new-coke/583897.md?page=8)