# New discussion thread for Israel/Gaza/West Bank (Hijacks tolerated) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war, hijacks-tolerated\ **Created:** [July 12, 2026, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615 "2026-07-12T00:17:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/355 "2026-09-01T16:37:35Z")
It’s really interesting seeing, in this thread, the real-time schism of Jews in the world. Millions of American Jews like me are seeing that present-day Israel is engaging in abominable atrocities and making the world less safe for Jews. Jews like Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir, settlers, and their supporters seem to me to be as dangerous to Jews as Hamas and even neo-Nazis. They’re literally allying with American (and European) neo-Nazis and fascists (Trump and co). What will Israel’s future be like if it loses the support of the US and Europe? It seems inevitable to me barring some sort of monumental change in course. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/356 "2026-09-01T16:48:57Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > No I do not. The only least-bad option available to Palestinians right now, in this moment, is to encourage their fellow Palestinians who are Hamas to unconditionally surrender. Other, far greater powers, have capitulated when faced with the choice to surrender or continued misery and death. Clearly the Palestinians believe that surrender would only lead to continued misery and death, and one can hardly blame them. The intensity of violent Palestinian resistance has waxed and waned over the last few decades, the intensity of Israeli settlement building in the West Bank has not. I think it would be in the best interests of the Palestinian people to adopt a policy of Gandhian nonviolent resistance, but that’s because it would influence international public opinion, not because I expect Israelis to change their behavior. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/357 "2026-09-01T16:50:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But let’s suppose they do it. Let’s suppose everyday Palestinians tell Hamas to surrender. > > Do you think Hamas would then surrender? They might. They might not. Either way, it would tell us something about how they view their fellow Palestinians who outnumber them 2M to 25-50K, who simply want to live in safety and peace. > If they surrendered, do you think the fanatical settlers and IDF butchers and their government supporters _who are essentially on record as wanting more war and bloodshed until all the Palestinians leave or are dead_ would then stop the murdering and brutalizing and violation of rights? No I do not. I view them with the same contempt as Hamas. They are terrorist in my eyes. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If they didn’t, what do you suggest after that? Wholehearted condemnation. No different than what we are both agreeing to now. Hamas not surrendering is not going to change any of that. Elections in Israel stand the best chance, imo. Elections in Palestine, not so much. But I’m not against the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/358 "2026-09-01T16:51:09Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > The intensity of violent Palestinian resistance has waxed and waned over the last few decades, the intensity of Israeli settlement building in the West Bank has not. I think it would be in the best interests of the Palestinian people to adopt a policy of Gandhian nonviolent resistance, but that’s because it would influence international public opinion, not because I expect Israelis to change their behavior. Considering the number of times that Israel has offered the Palestinians a state and the Palestinians rejected the offer because it wasn’t a single state from the river to the sea with full right of return, this is quite laughable. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/359 "2026-09-01T16:51:56Z")
Israel has no long-term future if it loses the support of the US and Europe. If it were run by rational people, it would desperately be trying to maintain those relationships. But it is run by religious lunatics who think that killing as many people as possible will meet with God’s approval and lead Him to miraculously smite their enemies. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/360 "2026-09-01T16:54:50Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > But it is run by religious lunatics who think that killing as many people as possible will meet with God’s approval and lead Him to miraculously smite their enemies. You really don’t know the first thing about Netanyahu, do you? He is not a religious lunatic, he is a cynical and manipulative creature of politics. His alliance with religious factions is entirely about political expediency. Also, this seems to contradict your earlier assertion that: > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Then the Zionists abandoned Judaism in favor of secularist racism, invaded the area and started the current troubles. I mean, your earlier assertion was completely untrue, so I’m glad to see you have abandoned it, but that was quite the rapid flip-flop. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/361 "2026-09-01T16:55:51Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > They might. They might not. Either way, it would tell us something about how they view their fellow Palestinians who outnumber them 2M to 25-50K, who simply want to live in safety and peace. Maybe they’ve already tried. Or maybe, since they’re just human beings enduring incredible brutality and desperation in circumstances beyond their control, they see Hamas as a very flawed but still preferred ally as compared to the murderous fanatics trying to kill and ethnically cleanse them. ISTM that you’re requiring some sort of superhuman morality and wisdom and judgment when these are just regular people in some of the worst circumstances in Earth. Better, ISTM, to just require some sort of normal level of decency and humanity from those with all the power - the Israeli government and military. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/362 "2026-09-01T16:57:36Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I think it would be in the best interests of the Palestinian people to adopt a policy of Gandhian nonviolent resistance, but that’s because it would influence international public opinion, not because I expect Israelis to change their behavior. I think it’s worth a try. I think it would find support and solidarity with a significant number of Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/363 "2026-09-01T17:14:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe they’ve already tried. When? Be specific. When did Hamas consult their fellow Palestinians about the option to surrender to have it rejected by them in lieu of more misery? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Or maybe, since they’re just human beings enduring incredible brutality and desperation in circumstances beyond their control, they see Hamas as a very flawed but still preferred ally as compared to the murderous fanatics trying to kill and ethnically cleanse them. I think now is the time to reflect on their conclusions about Hamas being a preferrable ally. Until Oct 7, they had roofs over their heads. I suspect many have reached that conclusion long ago, but are caught between a rock and hard place. No pun intended. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/364 "2026-09-01T17:19:09Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I think now is the time to reflect on their conclusions about Hamas being a preferrable ally. Until Oct 7, they had roofs over their heads. > > I suspect many have reached that conclusion long ago, but are caught between a rock and hard place. No pun intended. So maybe the only ones with actual power right now, who are engaging and allowing all kinds of atrocities, are the ones we should be focusing on changing paths for. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/365 "2026-09-01T17:22:51Z")
Nitpick: I hadn’t been aware of the battle of Khaybar, but it appears to have taken place on the Arabian peninsula, not in Eretz Israel. Also, the way you phrase it suggests that “since Islam’s conquest”, _Muslims_ have been carrying out massacres, pogroms, and slaughters of Jews. Of course I know you know that the vast majority of such slaughters were carried out by Christians and atheists of Christian descent. And what you miss is that, although there was obviously an element of making the best of what you can’t change anyway, Judaism made a virtue of military impotence. We were the people of the Book, concerned with matters of ethics and morality. Warfare was for the descendants of Esau.The Talmud (Chullin 111a) explicitly forbids Jews from attempting to reclaim the Land or from violently rebelling against oppressive governments. This rejection of violence in favor of patiently awaiting God’s miraculous redemption is the essential genius of Judaism, and the absolute antithesis of Zionism. My request to the Zionists: If you want to pick up guns and act like goyim, please just call yourselves goyim and don’t embarrass Judaism by pretending to be affiliated with it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/366 "2026-09-01T17:25:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s really interesting seeing, in this thread, the real-time schism of Jews in the world. Millions of American Jews like me are seeing that present-day Israel is engaging in abominable atrocities and making the world less safe for Jews. What’s really interesting to me is how some American Jews think they were ever safe in the world at any time in recorded history. Or that they could be assured of safety in society as long as they were on the correct side of an issue concerning the Jews or Israel in particular. We never were. We never will be. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Jews like Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir, settlers, and their supporters seem to me to be as dangerous to Jews as Hamas and even neo-Nazis. They’re literally allying with American (and European) neo-Nazis and fascists (Trump and co). I wonder, are there any Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, etc… who sit around regularly wondering whether one of their fellow co-religionists are “good for them”? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What will Israel’s future be like if it loses the support of the US and Europe? It seems inevitable to me barring some sort of monumental change in course. Proving yet again that Jews, in their homeland, continue to live and prosper at the pleasure and whim of their benefactors. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/367 "2026-09-01T17:28:12Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > We never were. We never will be. And it’s getting worse today. Israel is contributing to the increasing danger for Jews today. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/368 "2026-09-01T17:30:35Z")
Zionism _started_ as a secular anti-Torah movement, but in modern times has largely evolved into a sick parody of Judaism. It was indeed “quite the rapid flip-flop” when the vast majority of religious Jews around the world decided that Zionism was kosher once it seemed to be winning. But it is important to realize that happened ONLY after the Zionists had already won. In the pre-State period, Zionism was an overwhelmingly secular movement that was often explicitly contemptuous of religion. And please stop pretending that there is some meaningful difference between putting Ben-Gvir in your government as a matter of “political expediency” and doing so out of sincere agreement with him. The current Israeli government wouldn’t have a majority without religious lunatics, therefore it is fair to say that religious lunatics control the government (though it would be equally fair to say that cynical, manipulative secularists control the government, if you think that sounds better). ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/369 "2026-09-01T17:31:47Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > My request to the Zionists: If you want to pick up guns and act like goyim, please just call yourselves goyim and don’t embarrass Judaism by pretending to be affiliated with it. QED I know you didn’t mean to insult every “goy” following this thread. But you kinda did, bubelah. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/370 "2026-09-01T17:34:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And it’s getting worse today. Israel is contributing to the increasing danger for Jews today. It has always been a short walk. Don’t kid yourself. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/371 "2026-09-01T17:35:51Z")
What’s your point? It’s always dangerous for Jews, so we shouldn’t expect Israel to not make that danger worse? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/372 "2026-09-01T17:37:51Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Also, the way you phrase it suggests that “since Islam’s conquest”, _Muslims_ have been carrying out massacres, pogroms, and slaughters of Jews. In the Middle East and North Africa, the parts of the world that my post was discussing, that’s indeed who was massacring Jews, for the most part. Mostly because that’s who was there - when Christian Crusaders arrived, they did their best to catch up. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > And what you miss is that, although there was obviously an element of making the best of what you can’t change anyway, Judaism made a virtue of military impotence. We were the people of the Book, concerned with matters of ethics and morality. That’s an _interesting_ way to whitewash our own oppression. That’s about all I can say about it outside the Pit. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > This rejection of violence in favor of patiently awaiting God’s miraculous redemption is the essential genius of Judaism, and the absolute antithesis of Zionism. If by _‘essential genius’_ you mean _‘the reason we languished in oppression for two thousand years’_ then I suppose I agree. God helps those who helps themselves, and sitting around hoping God would save them didn’t work out well for the non-Zionist branch of my family, which has been extinguished in the Holocaust. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > My request to the Zionists: If you want to pick up guns and act like goyim, please just call yourselves goyim and don’t embarrass Judaism by pretending to be affiliated with it. There was a group of Jews who preached this type of message; they were called Bundists, and they aren’t around today because they died in fucking gas chambers. Unfortunately, we now have neo-Bundists, who say stupid shit like: > [@](#): > > We have a moral imperative to place the needs of the world above even our own self-interest and, yes, even our own survival > **[Michigan AG Nessel tells Jewish Democrats to put ‘needs of world’ ahead of...](https://jewishinsider.com/2026/08/dana-nessel-jewish-safety-survival-el-sayed-michigan/)** > > Nessel, who still hasn’t endorsed Democratic Senate nominee Abdul El-Sayed, said she won’t support Republican Mike Rogers ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/373 "2026-09-01T17:41:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What’s your point? It’s always dangerous for Jews, so we shouldn’t expect Israel to not make that danger worse? Do Nazis make Germany and Germans less safe in the world? That’s my point. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2026, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/374 "2026-09-01T17:42:01Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > But it is important to realize that happened ONLY after the Zionists had already won. In the pre-State period, Zionism was an overwhelmingly secular movement that was often explicitly contemptuous of religion. A, being secular doesn’t mean it wasn’t JEWISH. That’s some Ben Gvir thinking, accusing secular Israelis of not being real Jews. B, I think it’s less about Zionism winning and more about how all of the Bundists who were talking about how important here-ness is died in gas chambers because here-ness in Europe turned out to be an epically shitty idea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615.md?page=19)