# New discussion thread for Israel/Gaza/West Bank (Hijacks tolerated) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war, hijacks-tolerated\ **Created:** [July 12, 2026, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615 "2026-07-12T00:17:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/455 "2026-09-02T16:53:05Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Our experience has been otherwise. Sure, Jewish secular culture is rich, but it doesn’t sustain community. With the arguable exception of the Zionist movement itself, there are no large, sustainable organizations of American Jews that meet regularly to discuss and educate about secular culture and pass their secular Jewish identity on to their children. “Secular Jewish movements are doomed to failure, except for the one successful one”… > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Our Bundist-equivalent organizations weren’t killed off, they just withered away for lack of interest. Well, yes, most people don’t have much interest in “hereness”. Judaism as a religion (like most other indigenous religious beliefs) has always been intrinsically linked with the land of Israel - that’s how original ancient Judaism was, and Rabbinical Judaism as you noted above revolves around the absence from that land. Trying to mash Judaism together with a weird foreign concept like “hereness” doesn’t work. Zionism is the one form of secular Judaism that maintained the connection to the land, hence its success. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/456 "2026-09-02T16:55:28Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Also, I think Ahad Ha-am actually had a horribly negative impact on Jewish secular culture, since he encouraged Jews to stop speaking the language that Jewish secular literature of the previous couple centuries had been written in, but that’s another story If it was like, impossible to translate Yiddish into Hebrew, you might have a point? But on the other hand, Yiddish is specific to one Jewish subculture, and there were plenty of secular Jewish writings in plenty of other Jewish and non-Jewish languages. That’s a very Ashkenazi-centric view. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/457 "2026-09-02T17:05:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > “Secular Jewish movements are doomed to failure, except for the one successful one”… There’s no doubt that for many Americans, identification with the State of Israel has provided a way to embrace Jewish identity without having to actually obey any inconvenient commandments or anything. But it’s not really building community in the sense I’m talking about; only a tiny minority of American Jews are actively involved in any secular Zionist organizations beyond sending the occasional check. In fact, the only secular Jewish mass organizations that are growing here are ANTI-Zionist ones like Jewish Voice for Peace. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/458 "2026-09-02T17:10:06Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > There’s no doubt that for many Americans, identification with the State of Israel has provided a way to embrace Jewish identity without having to actually obey any inconvenient commandments or anything. So I take it you follow all 613 commandments (minus the ones relating to a Temple of course)? Or are you casting stones from a glass house? > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > But it’s not really building community in the sense I’m talking about; only a tiny minority of American Jews are actively involved in any secular Zionist organizations beyond sending the occasional check That definitely hasn’t been my experience. Outside of this message board, I can think of exactly one Jewish American I know personally who _does not_ have a strong connection with Israel. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > In fact, the only secular Jewish mass organizations that are growing here are ANTI-Zionist ones like Jewish Voice for Peace. …What does JVP have to do with Jewish organizations? These are the guys who posted a Kwanza lamp on Hannukah and printed their Seder plates mirrored. That’s some Jill “Post a Photo On Twitter Tagged ‘As A Jew’ With a Crucifix In the Background” Steinn idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/459 "2026-09-02T17:12:14Z")
What specifically should the U.S. do? ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/460 "2026-09-02T17:22:08Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Which cuts to the heart of the argument we’re having here: what are the Jewish people? Are we just another ethno-nationalist group, whose win condition is to establish our own nation-State? Or are we a people unique in history, a nation which shuns worldly power and whose win condition is to cultivate elevated moral and spiritual ideas in order to be an inspiration to the rest of humanity? Just like with any other group there are no lines. The only unique thing about jews is that a much wider swath than the average ethnic/cultural group spends a bunch of effort trying to define where the imaginary line is. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/461 "2026-09-02T17:23:31Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > The only unique thing about jews is that a much wider swath than the average ethnic/cultural group spends a bunch of effort trying to define where the imaginary line is. _That_ is definitely not true. Debating group membership is inherent to groups. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/462 "2026-09-02T17:41:04Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The best parts of our community have very little to do with religion. > > I’m not sure what branch of Judaism you are a part of, but I’m certain that you don’t agree with plenty that is in the faith, like women needing their husband’s permission to seek a divorce? Recently read someone answering the question “what is Judaism?” with “Judaism is showing up at the shiva when an acquaintance dies, so the family can fulfill the obligation of saying Kaddish”. THAT is to my mind the best part of our community – showing loving support for each other, and feeling obligated to do so even at times when we don’t feel like it. People have deeply meaningful emotional moments at shivas, forming memories that can provide them with lasting comfort. Do many of these moments happen during the actual minute that everyone stands up and recites a few paragraphs of Aramaic? No, but you have to do it, because that’s what makes it a _shiva_, not just a memorial lunch. So, really, agree/disagree with the first sentence there. I am more or less a Reconstructionist. I don’t believe that the Torah is the literal word of God, or that the actual God much resembles the character of that name in the Torah. But I do believe that being a Jew means that the Torah imposes behavioral obligations on me. What those obligations are depends on the consensus of the community and on one’s individual conscience, but they have to exist for Judaism to be meaningful. Do I think God cares if I put tefillin on in the morning? No. But I do it because it’s part of the package. Being Jewish means doing Jewish stuff. I have faith in the halachic system devised by centuries of Jewish genius, plus/minus Divine inspiration; I think that doing Jewish stuff will make me a better person, and I don’t think I’m smart enough to pick out which bits are important, so my default assumption is that I should try to do it all. I’m prepared to make exceptions for a lot of things, like the divorce laws and the homophobia which are just obviously wrong, but my default mode is to defer to the tradition unless there is an compelling reason not to. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/463 "2026-09-02T17:45:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > …What does JVP have to do with Jewish organizations? These are the guys who posted a Kwanza lamp on Hannukah and printed their Seder plates mirrored. That’s some Jill “Post a Photo On Twitter Tagged ‘As A Jew’ With a Crucifix In the Background” Steinn idiocy. So are you now claiming the right to decide who isn’t a real Jew? And condemning these people’s Jewish legitimacy specifically based on their lack of knowledge of religious tradition? I am shocked. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/464 "2026-09-02T17:54:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > _That_ is definitely not true. Debating group membership is inherent to groups. Which makes me wonder what your own perspective is. If you don’t have to be religious to be a Jew, is there anything you DO have to be or not be? Does it rely solely on ethnic pedigree, and if so how does that work? Are we just accepting the traditional religious definition, and if so isn’t that kind of weird if we identify as secularists? Is conversion to Judaism legitimate, and if so are there particular rules governing it, or is it purely a matter of self-identification? Do you think there are many people in the world who are falsely claiming to be (or not be) Jews? If a Jewish person converts to Christianity, are they still Jewish? Is it relevant whether or not THEY think they’re still Jewish? (Not expecting a specific answer to every one of these questions, of course, just wondering about your general perspective) ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/465 "2026-09-02T17:57:27Z")
What’s wrong with self identification? Other than Madonna ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/466 "2026-09-02T18:00:36Z")
Personally, I think there’s a lot to be said for just going with self-identification. Certainly it’s the simplest and most practical system, but I’m curious what Babale thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/467 "2026-09-02T18:09:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That definitely hasn’t been my experience. Outside of this message board, I can think of exactly one Jewish American I know personally who _does not_ have a strong connection with Israel. But is this “connection” to Israel leading them to deliberately seek out other secular Zionists in their communities and actively work on forming personal relationships with them based on their shared values? If not, it’s not serving the same function as religion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/468 "2026-09-02T18:31:58Z")
Forgive me for interrupting the hijack - the Israeli Defense Minister openly admits that ethnic cleansing is the goal in Gaza: > **[Israel Katz says Palestinians will leave Gaza](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-katz-says-palestinians-will-leave-gaza)** > > Israeli defence minister tells media 'there is no real solution for Gaza in the end without this migration' ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/469 "2026-09-02T18:42:50Z")
So he has a plan for the “solution…in the end”? Sounds familiar. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/470 "2026-09-02T18:48:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There are many cited details of the atrocities Sure, plenty of atrocities on both sides, I do not dispute that. However, the aid that the US sends to Israel does not support the activities in Gaza. I have pointed this out several times. Please read those posts- > [@DrDeth](#): > > I have mentioned this several times before - the US aid to Israel is a small portion of the IDFs budget, the big ticket items are missile defense systems. > > If the USA stopped military aid to Israel they could easily continue their activities in Gaza. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > What specifically should the U.S. do? Since the US can not stop Hamas from terrorism or the IDF from over reacting, then all the US can do it try to broker peace deals- which Hamas keeps rejecting- and the ones that Hamas does not reject- Israel does. What do YOU think about this situation? Do you have an opinion? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > the Israeli Defense Minister openly admits that ethnic cleansing is the goal in Gaza: No, he does not- > that “nearly 80 percent” of Gazans surveyed "said they were interested in receiving information about mechanisms for relocating to a third country ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/471 "2026-09-02T19:02:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > However, the aid that the US sends to Israel does not support the activities in Gaza. I have pointed this out several times. Supporting this Israeli government is supporting these atrocities, whether or not the specific arms are being used there. Money is fungible. Giving Israeli a single dollar while they’re doing and allowing atrocities means we’re aiding in those atrocities. > [@DrDeth](#): > > No, he does not- He literally says that the war won’t end unless Gazans leave: > “There is no real solution for Gaza in the end without migration,” Yes, he’ll couch it in other terms – lying that Gazans want to leave, that Israel is helping Gazans, etc., but those are obvious lies. Their actions and words make it very clear that ethnic cleansing is the goal. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/472 "2026-09-02T19:28:17Z")
I’m sure 80 percent of Gazans do want to leave. I frankly wonder what is wrong with the other 20%. But given that their desire to leave is driven entirely by Israel’s actions in making their homeland unlivable, it’s horribly disingenuous to claim that Israel is doing them some favor by facilitating emigration. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/473 "2026-09-02T19:43:31Z")
Seen on Substack and cosigned: (paraphrased, not quoted) The Palestinians deserve better terrorists than Hamas. Political violence is supposed to be a tactic used to achieve an objective, not something you do ritualistically just because you can. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2026, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/474 "2026-09-02T20:40:08Z")
So Ben-Gvir’s campaign slogan is “He Who Believes Is Not Afraid”. There’s a theme song and everything, YouTube it if you dare. Sounds very inspirational and religious. Is it from the Bible? No, you may be thinking of Proverbs 28:14, “Happy is the man who fears always, but he who hardens his heart will fall into mischief”. Kind of the same, except exactly opposite. It almost seems as though the Bible is saying a person _should_ be afraid of the possible negative consequences of his or her actions. Sounds pretty woke if you ask me. So in which traditional, authoritative Jewish source did the oh so deeply religious Ben-Gvir find this line? It’s from a synth-pop song by a heavily tattooed pop singer named Eyal Golan, who was once charged with being involved in the child prostitution ring his father was running, though the charges were dropped. There really is just nothing redeemable about the theological/political dumpster fire of Religious Zionism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615.md?page=24)