# New discussion thread for Israel/Gaza/West Bank (Hijacks tolerated) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war, hijacks-tolerated\ **Created:** [July 12, 2026, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615 "2026-07-12T00:17:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2026, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/655 "2026-10-11T04:16:40Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Okay, so question I’ve always had: is the goal of peacefully dissolving the nation of Israel common amongst the left? Is this an extreme point of view? Antisemitic? Are you a Zionist if you do not support the peaceful dissolution of the nation of Israel as the ultimate goal? …I’m about as pro-Palestinian as you can get on these boards, and I’m a woke-lefty. And I have no desire for the nation of Israel to peacefully desolve. That isn’t the “ultimate goal.” I have zero opinion on Zionism. I don’t even know what the word means. Its obviously used differently by different people. It’s a debate I have no interest in having. I think what Hamas did on October the 7th was an atrocity and a war crime and indefensible. And those responsible should have (and have been) punished. I think Israel had a right to defend themselves, and they had a right to retaliate. I think that Israel is illegally occupying Palestine, and my thoughts are backed up by the advisory opinion of the [International Court of Justice that was released in 2024](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/report-of-the-secretary-general-icj-19dec24/). I think that Israel needs to follow international law and end the occupation. I think that what Israel is doing in the West Bank, including blatant violations of international law, is ethnic cleansing. I think the same for what they are doing right now in Southern Lebanon. I think that what Israel is doing in Gaza is genocide. That view is backed up by almost all of the humanitarian agencies and NGOs on the ground, by multiple agencies with the UN, by a broad consensus of genocide scholars. Israel stands credibly accused of genocide in the International Court of Justice. Mr Benjamin Netanyahu has an arrest warrant issued by the International Criminal Court for the war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare and of intentionally directing an attack against the civilian population; and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts. Israel run a network of what can only be called [torture camps](https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell). They are holding thousands of Palestinians in inhumane conditions. I think that Israel regularly commits war crimes and atrocities with _impunity_. When they sabotaged the supply chain and made those cellphones blow up in Lebanon, that was a terrorist attack. When they disguised themselves as doctors and nurses and extrajudicially executed patients, that was a warcrime. And yet even people on these boards _defended these things_. I’ve said this before: the sheer scale of atrocities that Israel has committed over the last three years is so big that I could talk about a different atrocity a day in detail, and I’d still be going five years from now. So my position is simple: Israel needs to follow international law, end the illegal occupation of Palestine and southern Lebanon, end the torture camps, and end apartheid. That’s my ultimate goal. But I don’t speak for all "leftists. "I don’t think “the goal of peacefully dissolving the nation of Israel” is common amongst the left at all. But I think that some people _do_ think this. Just like some “rightists” _support_ the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. But it isn’t useful to make this a “left/right” thing. It isn’t useful to paint with a broad brush. And I’ve participated in nearly all of the Gaza threads since 2023, and what you suggest hasn’t been a sentiment raised in these threads much, if at all. It certainly isn’t a common sentiment here. As for “river to the sea,” like Zionism, it is undeniably something that means different things to different people. I’m sure for some people it means the goal of dissolving Israel, peacefully or otherwise. But for many it means simply “a call for peace, equality, and an end to apartheid.” Since the phrase was politicized, like the words “genocide,” “apartheid,” and “Nakba” have been, the usage of it has dropped dramatically. I would be surprised if it was the most commonly used chant at protests anymore. It certainly isn’t a phrase I use because I know it genuinely upsets people. But the fact that some people _do_ use it isn’t evidence that they want the state of Israel destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2026, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/656 "2026-10-11T07:02:54Z")
Wow, I sure as fuck would not hang out with any “leftists” who made such blatantly bigoted and Islamophobic statements, not that leftists seem to be too keen on organized religion. Actual leftists that I actually know chant about how “only socialism is true freedom”. That includes people from Jewish as well as Arab backgrounds, among others. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2026, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/657 "2026-10-11T10:43:43Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > is the goal of peacefully dissolving the nation of Israel common amongst the left? Not amongst the leftists I know (a number of whom _are_ Jewish, often with ties to Israel). The only leftists I know who would want that are the ones who want to dissolve _all_ nation-states, but there it’s a side-effect of that overall goal. _Some_ of the pro-Palestine people I know do want that, but, judging by the other things those particular people espouse, they’re definitely not leftists. > [@Leaper](#): > > Is this an extreme point of view? I would say so. > [@Leaper](#): > > Are you a Zionist if you do not support the peaceful dissolution of the nation of Israel as the ultimate goal? Nope. I mean, _I_ don’t support it, and I’m … definitely not a Zionist. I do support dropping some of the apartheid elements of the current Israeli setup, but that’s not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2026, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/658 "2026-10-11T13:20:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It was the mass sanctions that caused the South African economy to tank, and that economic downturn was the biggest factor in causing the apartheid leaders to realize their cause was doomed (and thus they must negotiate with their opponents). [Nelson Mandela:](https://www.nytimes.com/1985/07/07/magazine/a-rare-talk-with-nelson-mandela.html?unlocked_article_code=1.H1E.dhHx.d5fVeC47fuAo&smid=url-share) > [@](#): > > Unlike white people anywhere else in Africa, whites in South Africa belong here - this is their home. We want them to live here with us and to share power with us. Mass sanctions will not work because Israel tried withdrawal of all Jews from Gaza and, first, got near-daily rocket attacks on its civilians, and then got October 7. Israelis know the difference between Hamas and the African National Congress. Worth thinking about from Biden Middle East advisor [Brett McGurk’s new book](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/843630/brink-by-brett-mcgurk/): > [@](#): > > Weakening only one side of an ongoing conflict would not produce peace or stability. It would merely shift advantage—in this case, toward the Houthis, a hostile force armed with Iranian missiles and drones and controlling access to the Red Sea. And in the specific case of Israel and Hamas: > [@](#): > > Every time that Biden had curtailed assistance for Israel—or even threatened to do so—it had the perverse effect of emboldening Hamas, which would shut down negotiations to release hostages it was holding in exchange for a cease fire. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2026, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/659 "2026-10-11T13:23:07Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Israel tried withdrawal of all Jews from Gaza and, first, got near-daily rocket attacks on its civilians, and then got October 7. Israeli leaders also helped fund Hamas and kneecap moderate alternatives in Gaza, and Israel continued regular brutality, theft, and violations of rights of civilians in the West Bank. Mass sanctions haven’t been tried yet. We don’t know what impact they would have. Maybe they would reduce the ethnic cleansing and mass slaughter of civilians caused and allowed by the Israeli government. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2026, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/660 "2026-10-11T21:06:27Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Mass sanctions will not work because Israel tried withdrawal of all Jews from Gaza While maintaining control over Gaza’s airspace, maritime access and most crossings, imposing a blockade, and continuing to carry out airstrikes. (Leaving aside the West Bank and East Jerusalem situation.) ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2026, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/661 "2026-10-11T23:39:28Z")
Re last post, it’s tempting to push bitter details from my Zionist perspective. But knowing there’s considerable validity to both the Palestinian and Israeli narratives, I don’t have the heart for it. The Israeli policy of not allowing Gaza a port and airport until they made peace with Israel was, just as a military matter, a practical failure. In mentioning the 2005 Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, and its aftermath, I was giving a reason why sanctions on the South African anti-apartheid model, against the Israelis, won’t get Israel to give in (or Hamas to give up its most cherished goals), and it still applies regardless of which side one believes to be the cruelest. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2026, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/662 "2026-10-12T00:07:13Z")
How about just less mass murder of civilians? Maybe sanctions could help reduce that? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2026, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/663 "2026-10-12T01:04:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How about just less mass murder of civilians? Like on **October 7, 2023?** ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2026, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/664 "2026-10-12T08:39:37Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > In mentioning the 2005 Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, and its aftermath, I was giving a reason why sanctions on the South African anti-apartheid model, against the Israelis, won’t get Israel to give in If sanctions were applied the same way they (eventually) were in SA , they would eventually have no choice. They could not sustain their current level of force projection with a reduced economy. Where will they source the 60-70% of Tamir interceptor components currently made in the US? And don’t underestimate the degree to which a cultural boycott affects the population’s attitude. It’s the combo that does it, ultimately. Your reasoning, if I read it right, is that withdrawal didn’t affect the degree of hostility Israel receives from Palestine - but I don’t see how that’s relevant to the effectiveness of sanctions at all. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2026, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/665 "2026-10-12T10:00:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Like on **October 7, 2023?** Israel mass murdered civilians on October 7, 2023? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2026, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/666 "2026-10-12T14:43:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How about just less mass murder of civilians? This is a deeply, deeply,deeply disturbing attitude. Ignoring the genocidal mass murder of civilians by Hamas is insulting. It is as insulting as ,for example, telling blacks in America that they should ignore slavery. ( because it helped blacks learn farming skills, or whatever.) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2026, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/667 "2026-10-12T14:51:57Z")
Hamas is already on the list of terrorist organizations in the United States and Europe, among other places. They cannot openly do business there. They are not being ignored, nor recognized as legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2026, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/668 "2026-10-12T14:59:03Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > They are not being ignored, nor recognized as legitimate. Tell that to Greta Thurnberg and the millions of demonstrators , and the dozens of Dopers on this board, who openly and proudly support Hamas and its tactics. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2026, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/669 "2026-10-12T15:02:51Z")
Greta Thunberg is protesting the genocide of Palestinians by Israel. That’s the genocide that’s being ignored. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2026, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/670 "2026-10-12T15:08:06Z")
I do not know whom Greta Thunberg was talking to or coordinating with, but the few people I know who visited the Gaza strip (a few years ago) said that Hamas had their fingers in everything and you literally could not avoid them. That still does not make them legitimate, more like a gang that has violently taken over and you need their permission to operate on their turf. If anyone supports that state of affairs, fuck them. ---
**Author:** ![colinfred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colinfred/32/21338_2.png) [@colinfred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colinfred)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2026, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/671 "2026-10-12T15:14:15Z")
You’ve forgotter about how they will occasionally look at their watch, notice it’s time to say say “obviously I condemn October7…” then get right back to reciting Hamas propaganda and blasting Israel for defending themselves. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2026, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/672 "2026-10-12T15:16:56Z")
No idea what this has to do with my post, unless it’s your position that every single post must also condemn the mass murder of civilians by Hamas. For the record, I do condemn Hamas mass murder, and always have, and I don’t believe it’s necessary to append this onto every single other post I make. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2026, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/673 "2026-10-12T15:21:44Z")
Content-free drive-by criticism of nothing. If you actually disagree with the specifics of anything I’ve said in this thread, I invite you to quote it. Otherwise, it sounds like just another “Israel must never be criticized” nonsense rant. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2026, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/674 "2026-10-12T18:57:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I have zero opinion on Zionism. I don’t even know what the word means. Its obviously used differently by different people. It’s a debate I have no interest in having. There’s plenty of discussion (that I’ve seen) about deplatforming or opposing certain individuals, politicians and otherwise, on the sole basis of being a “Zionist,” so I do think the definition has some general relevance. It also has relevance to related topics, like “Does the phrase ‘Zionism is racism’ help or hurt the cause of stopping genocide?” Heck, some seem to believe that arguing the definition is itself a sign of genocide support, but I’m assuming that those folks define any opposition to actively trying to make Israel cease to exist as a nation as Zionist. Thus my original question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615.md?page=34)