# New discussion thread for Israel/Gaza/West Bank (Hijacks tolerated) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war, hijacks-tolerated\ **Created:** [July 12, 2026, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615 "2026-07-12T00:17:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/755 "2026-10-14T07:57:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Sure. All colonization Then clearly the moral thing to do would be for the Arab colonizers to return to their homelands so that Israel can be inhabited by its indigenous people, the Jews. Right? > [@MrDibble](#): > > The Roman Empire had a large population of Jews that had moved way before the Second Temple ever fell. Yes, the Romans were welcoming hosts to their Judean allies up until they decided they wanted to start acting like an independent kingdom again and not a client state. Stop me if “they welcomed the Jews until they didn’t” is one you’ve heard before. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Is there a substantial population that’s half Palestinian-half Chinese I wasn’t aware that Ain al-Hilweh was in China. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/756 "2026-10-14T08:03:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then clearly the moral thing to do would be for the Arab colonizers to return to their homelands so that Israel can be inhabited by its indigenous people, the Jews. Right? And what about its indigenous people, the Palestinians? > [@Smapti](#): > > Stop me if “they welcomed the Jews until they didn’t” is one you’ve heard before. That’s why Rome continued to have synagogues and a substantial free Jewish population _after_ 70 AD, because the Romans just hated them so much… > [@Smapti](#): > > I wasn’t aware that Ain al-Hilweh was in China. I wasn’t aware that I was answering a question that mentioned Ain al-Hilweh. I answered only what I quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/757 "2026-10-14T08:10:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I wasn’t aware that I was answering a question that mentioned Ain al-Hilweh. I answered only what I quoted. Perhaps you should have read harder. > [@Smapti](#): > > Do you believe that people of Palestinian ancestry living in the diaspora have ceased to be of Palestinian origin? Are the residents of Ain al-Hilweh Lebanese now? > [@MrDibble](#): > > And what about its indigenous people, the Palestinians? They should also be able to live in their indigenous homeland. How they and the Jews should be able to coexist in a peaceful manner has been a topic of some discussion in recent years, as I understand it. > [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s why Rome continued to have synagogues and a substantial free Jewish population _after_ 70 AD, because the Romans just hated them so much… The Bar Kochba rebellion wasn’t in 70. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/758 "2026-10-14T08:22:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Perhaps you should have read harder. Oh, I _saw_ that _separate_ question. I _answered_ the one I quoted, though. Which you’ve not replied to. > [@Smapti](#): > > They should also be able to live in their indigenous homeland. Well, then, no disagreement here. > [@Smapti](#): > > The Bar Kochba rebellion wasn’t in 70. So _many_ rebellions leading to population displacement, I was picking the first major one. It continued to have them _after_ 136 CE, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/759 "2026-10-14T08:25:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I _answered_ the one I quoted, though. > > Which you’ve not replied to. If there was a substantial population that’s half-Palestinian and half-Chinese, and only speaks a dialect of Cantonese, and it was their long-attested cultural belief that they originated in Palestine and that their cultural practices were of Palestinian origin, and genetic research backed that up, then I would consider them Palestinian as much as I consider myself a proud Scot even though it’s been nearly 400 years since my Scottish forebears arrived on this continent, and I would consider that they might have a valid claim to having freedom and self-determination in the land of Palestine. Even the Jews had mostly stopped speaking Hebrew by the time the diaspora started. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/760 "2026-10-14T08:53:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And the origin of the Jewish people is in Eretz Yisrael. They have an unbroken 2500-year tradition of being indigenous to the land and DNA backs up that tradition. If we stipulate that the Jewish people have a right to the land they originated from, that would be Judea. After all, even today Samaritans (what few that are left) aren’t considered Jews. So should Jews be confined to their ancestral homeland and Samaritans should have ancient Samaria? If we look to archeology we find that a lot of the glorious past of the Judeans (e.g. First Temple, conquest of Canaan) is, in a word, fiction. That’s not a smear. Most nations, even today, tend to use history quite liberally to invent a glorious past and sweep the more embarrassing facts under the rug. The national myths in my part of the world (Scandinavia) is about vikings and great victories during the 30-year war, as well as the battles fought by Charles XII. Our treatment of the Sámi is still under scrutiny today. Israel today exists. There are certainly a lot of people who want that to end. Anti-semitism has a long and tragic history in Christian Europe (Hey, @Babale, white people blaming going on, you should pounce on that). A lot of other minorities have been persecuted as well. Yet there is, to my knowledge, no movement to grant the Romani a homeland in Punjab. There are many small and distinct ethnic groups that - sometimes forcibly - were lumped together during the 19th C to create the modern nation states and whose origins were suppressed and erased. I cannot see how it could be possible to “give back the land” to every group with a an old claim to a territory. It doesn’t matter if the claim is 1400 or 500 years old. Israel, as I said, exists. The flimsy motivations for “the right to exist” are based on fiction or delusion. A way forward is much more interesting. * * * @MrDibble I don’t know if you enjoy trading barbs with @Babale. You know of course that you will never convince him of anything, as he constantly dismisses cites, changes position and goal posts, accuses any opponent of being [insert Nazi, Self-Hating Jew, anti-semite, anti-zionist etc.] He sits in SoCal (AIUI) and claims to know the inner workings of everything that happens in Israel. I realize that your writing is not for his benefit, but for other readers, but I have to say that I admire your tenacity. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/761 "2026-10-14T08:57:43Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > If we stipulate that the Jewish people have a right to the land they originated from, that would be Judea. After all, even today Samaritans (what few that are left) aren’t considered Jews. So should Jews be confined to their ancestral homeland and Samaritans should have ancient Samaria? IMHO as a prospective Reconstructionist convert, Samaritans are Jews and should be acknowledged as such. > [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > If we look to archeology we find that a lot of the glorious past of the Judeans (e.g. First Temple, conquest of Canaan) is, in a word, fiction. I’m not saying the Jews have a right to Israel because YHVH promised it to Moses. I’m saying that their earliest written traditions, in the form of the Torah and the Deuteronomistic History, establish that at least by the tail end of the First Temple era they dwelled in Israel and had an oral tradition of having originated there. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/762 "2026-10-14T08:58:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > their cultural practices What if they were a _mix_? Klezmer music and gefilte fish are European in origin, for instance. > [@Smapti](#): > > and genetic research backed that up, but it doesn’t. You’re adding that in yourself. The genetics say they have equal ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/763 "2026-10-14T09:01:07Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > @MrDibble I don’t know if you enjoy trading barbs with @Babale. I do not. I’ve avoided any personalization in my responses to him, I hope. > [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > I realize that your writing is not for his benefit, but for other readers, but I have to say that I admire your tenacity. Thanks. My main concern is always what the actual history and data show, rather than the mythology. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/764 "2026-10-14T09:02:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What if they were a _mix_? People can be indigenous to more than one place. As far as recent family history and some genealogical research has managed to feel out, I am half-English, quarter-Scot, and quarter-Italian. What’s _my_ indigenous homeland? > [@MrDibble](#): > > The genetics say they have equal ancestry. And if there are any Ashkenazi Jews out there who desire to think of their homeland as being in Poland or Germany of Russia, then I would support their aspirations as well. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/765 "2026-10-14T09:11:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > People can be indigenous to more than one place. No. Individuals can encompass multiple ethnicities, but ethnicity is not indigeneity. > [@Smapti](#): > > What’s _my_ indigenous homeland? I’m going to say you don’t have one. Not everyone does. If you complete your conversion, is it suddenly going to be Israel? > [@Smapti](#): > > And if there are any Ashkenazi Jews out there who desire to think of their homeland as being in Poland or Germany of Russia, then I would support their aspirations as well. I’d happily support their desire to return to the Rhineland. If they want to displace the citizens of Köln to do so, that support vanishes immediately. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/766 "2026-10-14T09:19:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Individuals can encompass multiple ethnicities, but ethnicity is not indigeneity. The two concepts are inextricably tied. You cannot have an ethnic group that does not identify with a specific homeland. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m going to say you don’t have one. My indigenous homeland is America. Same as it is for lots of people of mixed ethnicity whose ancestors wound up here for one reason or another. Same as it is for the 20-something Israelis in the IDF for whom Eretz Yisrael is the land where they were born, and where their parents were born, and where _their_ parents were born. > [@MrDibble](#): > > If you complete your conversion, is it suddenly going to be Israel? No. I will still be American, but I will hold a special kinship with the Jewish people. I’d like to _visit_ Israel at some point, but I doubt I’d ever want to live there. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/767 "2026-10-14T09:26:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You cannot have an ethnic group that does not identify with a specific homeland. Of course you can. Roma, for instance, certainly don’t identify with Punjab at all. > [@Smapti](#): > > My indigenous homeland is America. You are not indigenous to America. It’s your homeland, but not an indigenous one. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/768 "2026-10-14T09:51:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Roma, for instance, certainly don’t identify with Punjab at all. I am not familiar with the traditions of the Roma and cannot speak as to where they consider themselves indigenous to. > [@MrDibble](#): > > You are not indigenous to America. The fuck I’m not. This is where I was born. It’s where I’ll probably die. It’s where my parents and grandparents were born and died. It’s the place I’ve sworn loyalty to for my entire life, where I exercise the franchise to determine who shall govern on the behalf of my people, and to which my fate is for better or for worse forever intertwined. _How dare you_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/769 "2026-10-14T09:57:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The fuck I’m not. Indigenous means more than just “was born in” . Sorry that upsets you. I’m not indigenous to South Africa, either, for that matter. > [@Smapti](#): > > _How dare you_. How dare I _explain the facts_ to you? Quite easily, it turns out. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/770 "2026-10-14T10:02:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > How dare I _explain the facts_ to you? Quite easily, it turns out. I guess I’m just some sort of stateless bastard, then. Like you seem to think the Jews ought to be. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/771 "2026-10-14T10:27:54Z")
There are distinctions to be made for a couple of concepts that kind of overlap: country, land, realm, state, nation. The slipperiest to define is nation. Quite a lot of brilliant people have been trying to do that for at least 150 years, and there doesn’t seem to be a consensus even today. Of course the concept of state carry dual meanings for countries that are federation, e.g. Germany, U.S. but depending on context it’s usually clear whether _state_ refers to a part of the country or the whole entity. A lot of Americans are the result of admixture. I’ve met so many who say that they are “German-Irish” or “Italian-Greek.” Where are they indigenous? Are ancestors of the Mayflower indigenous Americans? Again, how far back do we go to establish indigenous? Spain was Muslim far longer than it’s been Christian and it’s still a blind spot for them. Because “everyone knows” that Los Reyes Catolicos kicked out the “Moros.” That those that chopped wood and carried water simply changed from one version of God to another, when they finally found out that the old bosses were gone, is something many Spaniards are uncomfortable with. With that said @Smapti: you are of course not stateless. Few people around the world are. Kurds, Western Sahara, Basques and yes Palestinians. A few hundred million at most. Whether you’re a bastard is something else. Does bastard mean mixed ancestry? Then yes. The connotation is much more negative though, but you brought up the term. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/772 "2026-10-14T10:55:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I guess I’m just some sort of stateless bastard, then I have no idea of your parentage, but I’m assuming, based off your posting history, that you have American citizenship, so in which way are you stateless, please? > [@Smapti](#): > > Like you seem to think the Jews ought to be. “The Jews” like @iiandyiiii or other American Jews here? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/773 "2026-10-14T12:50:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > you missed a bit… > > > descended from predominantly [Dutch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_people "Dutch people") [settlers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settler_colonialism "Settler colonialism") How do you imagine that bit changes anything? Do you think anyone denies that the origin of Afrikaners is Dutch people migrating to Africa? The point is that now that they’ve been there for hundreds of years they are their own unique thing. Sort of like the Palestinians, who _were_ descended from Levantine Arabs but are now Palestinian. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2026, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/774 "2026-10-14T12:51:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So, you agree al-Maqdisi was saying he was Palestinian. Yeah, just like someone can be a New Englander, or a Southerner. But the idea that this refers to an _ethnic group_ is preposterous. Also, I think it’s quite telling that you want to say that Palestinians were their own ethnic group hundreds of years ago, but refuse to acknowledge that Afrikaners are their own ethnic group now. Your mask is slipping. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615.md?page=39)