# New discussion thread for Israel/Gaza/West Bank (Hijacks tolerated) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war, hijacks-tolerated\ **Created:** [July 12, 2026, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615 "2026-07-12T00:17:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/795 "2026-10-15T07:10:51Z")
I have met Palestinians who were not exactly happy about how their parents or grandparents got displaced from their homes. I am sure they will be happy to know about how they have a right to live on the land. Do not tell them they should move to the West Bank, though, because would you? As for moving to Israel proper, based on personal experiences told me by even very non-Palestinian people from places like Czechia, Portugal, and Canada, they had the impression non-Jews were not welcome, at least if the ludicrous bureaucracy effectively barring them from citizenship is anything to judge by. [I also know a Lutheran who quite smoothly was able to immigrate to Israel because it turned out he had a Jewish grandfather, and I can tell you he in no way identifies as religiously, ethnically, or culturally Jewish, and is not going to. He still lives in Israel despite all the wars, a citizen by now I believe, and a productive member of society.] ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/796 "2026-10-15T07:13:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Doesn’t answer my question - what’s your point? That they’d have a right to live on the land, but they wouldn’t have the right to exclude the Ukranian diaspora from returning or setting up a polity for Ukranian self determination. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/797 "2026-10-15T07:25:07Z")
Returning - fine. That’s a great thing. “A polity for Ukrainian self determination” - does that involve kicking the Russifieds out of their ancestral homes that happen to be in that new polity, maybe planting those reluctant to move [under some beach resort parking lots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#), that kind of thing? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/798 "2026-10-15T07:27:46Z")
Israel is very much against Palestinian self-determination— they have said so and put their money where their mouth was, as it were— I am not sure what, if anything, will change after the next elections. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/799 "2026-10-15T16:14:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Returning - fine. That’s a great thing. > > “A polity for Ukrainian self determination” - does that involve kicking the Russifieds out of their ancestral homes that happen to be in that new polity, Ideally no, it does not. But if the newly Russified people react to the return of the Ukranians by declaring that “from the Steppe to the Sea, The Ukraine will be Russian” and launching war of annihilation after war of annihilation against the Ukranians, then they’d be fully justified in defending themselves. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/800 "2026-10-15T16:43:19Z")
Even if it has to be [_pre-emptive_ defense](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks#During_British_Mandated_Palestine_(1937%E2%80%931939)). And [the rape and child-killing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin), I’m sure those will be _defensive_ rapes and child-killings, too. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/801 "2026-10-15T17:32:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Even if it has to be _[pre-emptive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks#During_British_Mandated_Palestine_(1937%E2%80%931939))_[defense](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks#During_British_Mandated_Palestine_(1937%E2%80%931939)). Pre emptive? Are we just pretending that all of the prior attacks against Jews in [the](https://israelforever.org/events/petach_tikva_established-20321103) [region](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed) [just](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_civil_conflict_in_Mount_Lebanon_and_Damascus) [didn’t](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_affair) [happen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Druze_attack_on_Safed)? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/802 "2026-10-15T17:38:51Z")
You’re saying the Palestinian melon sellers of Haifa managed to time travel and kill Jews a hundred years before? Sometimes disguised as Druze? How did they ever get _Nakba_ed, with such powerful technology at their disposal? When Jabotinsky said they were “500 years behind” the Jews, he must have meant it literally! Of course, I will note that we’re skipping to “them” being the Jews who lived in the region continuously and were attacked, from “them” being mostly _European_ Jews who primarily made up Irgun and did the all that “pre-emptiving” … and the defensive rape and child-killing, let’s not skip over all _those_ “defensive” actions. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/803 "2026-10-15T17:56:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You’re saying the Palestinian melon sellers of Haifa managed to time travel and kill Jews a hundred years before? No, I’m saying that Arabs across the Levant killed Jews for hundreds of years despite being in total dominance over those Jews. And one of the examples is the 1880s massacre of Jewish Zionists in Petah Tikvah. But I note you only clicked one of the links, so of course you wouldn’t know that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/804 "2026-10-15T18:01:02Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > No, I’m saying that Arabs across the Levant killed Jews for hundreds of years despite being in total dominance over those Jews. Would this make the retaliatory massacres of Arab civilians okay? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/805 "2026-10-15T18:01:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > No, I’m saying that Arabs across the Levant killed Jews for hundreds of years despite being in total dominance over those Jews. The people doing the killing in 1834 and 1838 were not the same people who were in “total dominance” over the Jews at the time - that’s why they happened during peasant revolts and were put down - hard - by the actual (Muslim!) authorities. > [@Babale](#): > > And one of the examples is the 1880s massacre of Jewish Zionists in Petah Tikvah The one _the Zionists started_ by encroaching on others’ land? And “massacre”? One old lady died of a bad ticker 4 days later. That’s the total body count. > [@Babale](#): > > But I note you only clicked one of the links, so of course you wouldn’t know that. Maybe make better, more distinct, links? That don’t go to 403-Forbidden pages? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/806 "2026-10-15T18:51:24Z")
Catching up… > [@Babale](#): > > But the fact that Ashkenazi Jews identified as Jews and not as Europeans doesn’t matter because…? I dunno about you, but i identify primarily as American. And if you ask me about my ethnicity, I’ll say I’m an Ashkenazi Jew, or a Russian Jew. I think of my ancestors as coming from Europe. (Specifically, from the broader Russian empire: the places they fled were Russia and Lithuania when they left, but a lot of them left what is now Poland.) > [@Smapti](#): > > Much like Ashkenazi Jews are a mixture of the original refugees and the people they lived amongst, wouldn’t you say? Yup. > [@MrDibble](#): > > A [bunch of locals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#Genetics) converted to Islam? Including, it seems, no small amount of Israelites. Oh, there was also the usual mixing, but by-and-large, the peninsular conquerors did not push out the locals. I mean, _someone_ has to grow your dates and grain Thanks! I’ve always assumed that a large fraction of modern Palestinian genetics stems from conquered & converted Israelites. But no one ever mentions that. > [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > There are many small and distinct ethnic groups that - sometimes forcibly - were lumped together during the 19th C to create the modern nation states and whose origins were suppressed and erased. I cannot see how it could be possible to “give back the land” to every group with a an old claim to a territory. It doesn’t matter if the claim is 1400 or 500 years old. I can’t tell you how heartily i agree with this. I think modern Israelis should be able to live in Israel because _most of them were born there, many had grandparents born there_. I think modern Palestinians should be able to live in Palestine for the same reason. It would be nice they could agree on boundaries that worked for both groups. As a practical matter, none of them is likely to be safe if they didn’t have a border between them. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I’d happily support their desire to return to the Rhineland. > > If they want to displace the citizens of Köln to do so, that support vanishes immediately. I know a surprising number of people who have claimed German citizenship based on records that Germany drove out their ancestors before the mass killings began. Some live in Germany, one lives in Denmark as a German citizen. None has attempted to displace the existing locals. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/807 "2026-10-15T19:06:00Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’ve always assumed that a large fraction of modern Palestinian genetics stems from conquered & converted Israelites. Note that by the time of the Arab conquests, most of them were _already_ converted - to Christianity. And stayed that way for quite a bit after, too. Conversion to Islam wasn’t some instantaneous mass process there. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/808 "2026-10-15T19:07:07Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I dunno about you, but i identify primarily as American. I identify primarily as Jewish, then Israeli, then American. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I think of my ancestors as coming from Europe. My ancestors spent some time in Europe too, but they certainly weren’t European. The Europeans made that very clear when they drove one side of my family out and into the Arab world in 1492, and when they killed almost all of the remaining ones about 350 years later. And the Arabs made it very clear to the side of my family that ended up in the Arab world that they weren’t Arab, either, and that they were the lowest of the low, even lower than the Amazigh people they oppressed in the same time and place. So I don’t think of my ancestors as coming from Eastern Europe, nor North Africa, nor Spain. They _passed through_ there, but they were never _from_ there. They weren’t allowed to be. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/809 "2026-10-15T19:20:25Z")
As i understand it, my ancestors were members of the European oppressed underclass, much as Black Americans are American, even if they have often been treated badly, and even murdered and driven off their land from time to time. No, they weren’t Russian, or Latvian, or Polish. But they were European Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2026, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/810 "2026-10-15T19:26:08Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > As i understand it, my ancestors were members of the European oppressed underclass, much as Black Americans are American, even if they have often been treated badly, and even murdered and driven off their land from time to time. Black Americans are African Americans because when they were brought to America their enslavers intentionally, maliciously, and systematically destroyed any connection they had to their prior culture. If enslaved Africans had been brought to the Americas but then left to live in their own communities with enough agency to maintain their original cultures - Wolof, Bakongo, Mbundu, etc - then they wouldn’t have been African Americans, they’d have been enslaved Wolof, Bakongo, Mbundu, etc. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2026, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/811 "2026-10-17T03:25:46Z")
NPR interviewed a WaPo journalist who was attacked by a bunch of settlers. She was filming them attack some Arabs trying to pick olives. They had Molotov cocktails and were setting the trees on fire. [https://www.npr.org/2026/10/16/nx-s1-6004904/israeli-settlers-beat-us-photojournalist-washington-post-west-bank](https://www.npr.org/2026/10/16/nx-s1-6004904/israeli-settlers-beat-us-photojournalist-washington-post-west-bank) She said the army was there, but they supported the settlers and did nothing. She was beaten until some Palestinians threw stones at her attackers, allowing the other journalists to haul her away to a hospital. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2026, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615/812 "2026-10-17T11:11:54Z")
Israel doing their absolute best to confirm they are not our friend and they categorically do not respect human rights. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-discussion-thread-for-israel-gaza-west-bank-hijacks-tolerated/1031615.md?page=39)