You said this, then gave a cite where he said NOTHING OF THE SORT.
Now, the post could have said that "he wants Gazans to move out of Gaza, and I think that is “ethnic cleansing”. Reasonable. But instead he was clearly misquoted.
How can we trust these posts, when there is such a huge gap between what is claimed that the Israeli Defense Minister said, and what he really said. And note that word “openly” in “openly admits” - when at best there is a interpretation of what was said.
He says there’s no “solution” to Gaza without migration. So no way to finish the war without Gazans leaving. That’s not interpretation, that’s what the words mean.
…you haven’t commented on this yet. But this is the AI generated meme that Israeli national security minister Itamar Ben-Gvir proudly shared a few days ago on his Twitter feed.
In case you don’t want to or can’t click: the meme features racist caricatures of overweight Palestinians salivating at food with smiles on their faces, then they are put on conveyor belts through a concentration camp where they are starved and end up crying at the other end.
What do you think it is that Ben-Gvir is trying to say here? What do you think he is openly admitting to?
There isn’t a “huge gap” at all. Because you are taking what the Defense Minister in good faith.
But this sentence here: “There is no real solution for Gaza in the end without migration.” is a lie.
Migration isn’t inevitable. It isn’t the only option. It isn’t even a “real solution.” Nobody is going to take in over 80% of the population of Gaza as refugees. It’s a laughable proposition.
And surveys from COGAT are not to be trusted. They lie about how much aid is getting into the strip. They are lying here. I’m pretty sure what Palestinians in Gaza want is an end to the illegal occupation and full control over their borders so they can come and go as they want. They want to be be able to fish without getting shot at.
Sure, I agree with all of this, and I think it’s quite well said.
There’s something to that, I think. I know Reform Jews who would say something at their Shiva, but it’s not in Aramaic and not a Kadish, and there’s something about that that I do find odd. Not off enough to say they aren’t Jewish, of course.
I can relate to a lot of that, although I’m probably less theistic than you are. Something along those lines is why I choose to keep kosher, for example.
And the hope for “Next Year in Jerusalem”, I suppose?
Ha - I figured you might go there and almost addressed this ahead of time.
Nope, I don’t claim the right to decide who is and is not a real Jew based on the way in which they choose to practice or engage with Judaism. But if someone who clearly doesn’t know the first thing about Judaism falsely claims to be a Jew in order for their statements about Judaism to be granted additional gravitas, that’s something completely different. JVP is no more Jewish than “Jews” for Jesus. JVP culturally appropriates Jewish holidays in order to use them for political aims, just like Jews for Jesus uses Jewish aesthetic to try and convert Jews to Christianity.
Judaism is both a religion, an ethnic group, and a cultural group. This is because it predates the idea that these things should (or even can) be fully separated by thousands of years.
I think that if you meet a few criteria, you are Jewish:
…I guess that actually makes being a Jew a little like being a country. Ironic, considering how for most of history we didn’t have one.
No, a tribe is not the same thing as an ethnicity, even if they tend to be very closely correlated. You can join a tribe; that doesn’t change your ethnicity to the one that most tribe members have, but it doesn’t mean you aren’t a member of the tribe.
Yes, conversion is obviously legitimate - the written and oral rules of Judaism are perfectly clear on that. ואהבתם את הגר כי גרים הייתם בארץ מצרים.
Why do I care what the Torah or the Talmud say if I am secular? Because I care very much about Jewish culture which is intrinsically linked to the Jewish faith. I don’t have to think it is literally true to see tons and tons of value in it.
Are there rules governing conversions? Yes, obviously there are tons. Is a conversion invalid unless it follows them? I would direct you to the definition above - if you followed the rules of a mainstream branch of Judaism that is recognized as Jewish by other Jews, then you’re solid.
I’m not really concerned with what the Chief Rabbinate thinks is a valid conversion.
Not really - pretty much just Jews 4 Jesus types and Jill Stein types.
No. Judaism isn’t purely a religion, and you can be irreligious while being Jewish, but you cannot convert to another religion while remaining Jewish. Monotheism (or at least monolatry) is one of the cornerstones of Judaism.
Some great questions there! It’s good to take time every so often to think about these kinds of foundational questions.
Incidently, questioning and debating and sometimes even doubting is also something I consider fundamental to the Jewish experience, hence the story of Jacob wrestling with the Angel of God and the origin of the name “Israel”.
Which reminds me of one of my favorite skits of all time, from the show The Jews are Coming. Jacob comes home in the morning and a furious Rachel and Leah demand to know where he was all night. He explains that he wanted to come home but, unfortunately for him, he ran into an Angel of the Lord who demanded to fight. Jacob spent all night wrestling him. Leah and Rachel are understandably skeptical, and they continue to question Jacob, until the Angel comes through the door to tell them that yes, he really did keep Jacob up all night demanding to wrestle. Rachel and Leah calm down and leave, at which point the Angel turns to Jacob and says, “Jacob, I can’t keep bailing you out like this”.
In my experience, yes. Note that it’s not some 2000s era cringelord atheist-fest; no one is like, “hell yeah, secularism, fuck yeah!”; it’s more like a bunch of secular Jews engaging with Jewish culture and holidays and tying that to Israel in a whole host of ways.
…Huh… That’s really interesting. Can I ask where you learned this?
The reason I ask is that the framing there (heavily tattooed, etc) is the sort of thing that people like Ben Gvir and Netanyahu like to use as evidence that Israel has a severe problem with racism against Mizrachim. I’m half Mizrachi myself and, frankly, I’ve never been very convinced by this idea; I think it’s something that the Right manufactured to stoke racial tension and division that they exploit to win elections.
Encountering this narrative in the wild from an American is pretty weird, because I’ve never encountered any Ashkenazi Israelis who think that way about Mizrachim. I’d love to know how the narrative made its way to the States.
Eyal Golan is quoting in his song an older song that I’m sure even you would agree is quite Jewish:
Unless you want to question the Jewishness of Nachman of Breslov? After all, he said:
The Palestinians deserve political leaders who aren’t terrorists.
…were you expecting anything else?
You very obviously cannot.
Say what?
Ben Gvir is an odious piece of shit, but what the fuck are you talking about? There is no “concentration camp” in the video you linked. It’s a prison. It’s literally labeled as a prison in the video. And Ben Gvir has been bragging about how the prisons used to serve fresh baked pitas everyday until he got involved; that’s clearly what he is referring to. Trying to equate this to “cOnCeNtRaTiOn CaMpS” is a ridiculous attempt to play the Holocaust card and accomplishes nothing except ensuring that no one will take you seriously.
…I didn’t think anyone would actually try and defend the video, but here we are I suppose.
But more accurately we can call it a torture camp if you want.
https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell
Is that better?
Because this is what Palestinian prisoners often actually look like after release from Isreali torture camps.
But you condemn the video he posted of the torture camp, right? I think calling it a concentration camp is fair, but if you prefer a torture camp, then we can go with that. I wasn’t playing the “Holocaust card” whatever that means.
No one did, so I’m not sure why you would claim someone did.
The video is Ben Gvir’s attempt to campaign on the idiotic premise, “I made life harder for prisoners”.
Pretending that it’s a concentration camp is an attempt to weaponize the Holocaust against the Jewish State and is extremely antisemitic. Whatever source you got that claim from is lying to you.
If you wanted to be accurate, which I haven’t seenivj evidence for, you’d call it a prison.
I condemn campaigning on the premise “I made life for prisoners harder” and I think that anyone who would find that pitch appealing is an idiot. I don’t need to try and trivialize actual concentration camps to do that.
Perhaps, but whatever source labeled that video for you as depicting a “concentration camp” absolutely 100% was, and I would avoid such antisemitic sources in the future if I were you.
…do you condemn it?
I’m not “pretending.”
The video is disgusting. Its sick. Its twisted. Its demented. It was in my opinion very clearly designed inflame and anger by invoking the very tropes you decry. You should be directing your outrage on Ben Gvir not me.
And my original source was Ben Gvir.
Did you read my post?
I’m sure you can’t read Hebrew and aren’t the one who originally labeled it a “concentration camp” when it’s clearly a fucking prison; you clearly saw it labeled as such on an X post (or more likely a BlueSky post), so you’re right, you aren’t pretending, but you clearly fell for the lies that someone who should have known better told you.
…you wanna quote where you think I disagreed with that?
I am outraged with Ben Gvir for campaigning on making life harder for prisoners; I am outraged with whoever lied to you and told you that the video depicted a “concentration camp” when the word כלא or prison appears in the video multiple times and despite the fact that anyone who spends five minutes researching the issue can see that Ben Gvir’s cancellation of fresh baked pitas in prison is one of his proudest accomplishments; and I am outraged with you for falling for it when it is so obviously bullshit.
So what do you base the “cOnCeNtRaTiOn CaMp” claim on? Why did he label the building כלא מגנון if it’s meant to depict a concentration camp?
…he isn’t just campaigning on making life harder for prisoners.
Lets not hold back here.
He’s building a fucking crocodile moat.
I am outraged with whoever lied to you and told you that the video depicted a “concentration camp” when the word כלא or prison appears in the video multiple times
Nobody lied to me.
And do you think all concentration camps have the word “Concentration Camp” written on the gates? Do you think that’s the only difference between a “real” concentration camp and a pretend one?
I can assure you that I’ve both done my research, and I know that Ben Gvir is responsible for much more than the “cancellation of fresh baked pitas in prison.” He is an evil, evil person.
I looked at it and I see a concentration camp. I call it how I see it.
No, he isn’t. Your own links show that he isn’t building anything of the sort because Israel is a country of laws and the law does not allow a defense minister who was dropped on his head a few too many times as a baby to build moats filled with crocodiles around prisons.
Suuuuuuure.
…he’s standing on the bridge of the half-built moat. He will do his damndest to get it done if he can.
And this “nation of laws” currently has well over 3000 Palestinians in administrative detention.
https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention
It doesn’t matter how many laws they have if the laws are fundumentally unjust.
What does this even mean? That’s what I see. Can you be less cryptic?
When it doesn’t happen, will you:
OK
Locking up terrorists isn’t “fundamentally unjust”.
I’m sure that’s very convincing to those who didn’t watch the video.
…I’m not claiming anything other than what I said. I said “He’s building a fucking crocodile moat,” in an article that describes him standing over an unfinished moat but a partially constructed moat. If it doesn’t happen that doesn’t mean he didn’t try and get as far as digging the damn ditch.
Show me the proof that any of them are terrorists.
I would hope that anyone that watches the video would condemn it.
Do you condemn the video?
Quick tip: It’s quite obvious that you’re not asking this in good faith considering the number of times that I’ve answered that exact question already 
…I’m asking if you condemned the meme of overweight Palestinians that were smiling and fixated on food being put on a conveyor belt and run through and starved through a torture camp. I don’t characterize this as “campainging on making prisoners life harder.” That is a gross distortion of what he posted. What he posted was sick and should be universally condemned.
I’m condemning the video because its premise is “I made the lives of Palestinian prisoners harder, vote for me” which I find condemnable. I don’t know what the fuck a “tOrTuRe CaMp” is and I won’t pretend to in order to satisfy this struggle session.
I don’t really care how you characterize it; I’m basing my characterization on factual information, like what is in the actual video.
Pretending that it’s a concentration camp is a gross distortion of what he posted, which is disgusting enough on its own.
It’s pretty… Interesting… that you keep snipping my quotes to make it seem like I disagree with that when I’ve made statements to the same effect multiple times on this thread.
…how about the way that it portrays Palestinians?
Isreal runs a network of torture camps. This is well documented.
https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell
https://www.bmj.com/content/392/bmj.s171
But you aren’t condemning the video. Just the campaigning around it. That’s my point. The video in itself is what should be condemned, not for the campaign but for its depiction of Palestinians.
It’s an AI-GENERATED MEME. I call it a concentration camp because that’s what the imagery evokes. But it isn’t real.
Seriously: I’m not the one being disgusting here. That would be the current serving minister of national security.
You haven’t condemned the portrayal of Palestinians in the video that I pretty obviously thought was the sick, disgusting thing that needed condemning. That he is campaigning as well is irrelevant to what actually needs condemning here.
Not that it matters because it isn’t as if I can demand you condemn something. I was just asking for clarity. But you seem clear enough.