I’ll note that the critical issue right now is not getting the two parties to the table to advance two states. There’s no chance of that right now. The critical issue right now is getting Israel to stop slaughtering, brutalizing, and violating the rights of Palestinian civilians in Gaza and the WB.
I think we, as arm-chair diplomats, fail to understand what Israelis and Palestinians actually want with respect to a long term peaceful solution. We try to impose on them what we think would be good for them, but they don’t all necessarily see it the way we insist they should. They have been at each other’s throats for so long that whatever suffering they are experiencing is often simply the price they are willing to pay to hold on to their ideals and grudges. And yes, the Palestinians have largely paid the heavier price since 1948. But despite that, the majority of them don’t want to accept Israel as their neighbor. They feel, arguably justifiably so, that Jews displaced them in their homeland. We can blame the Ottomans for selling land. We can blame the Mandate partitions of the Levant. We can blame all sorts of historical events. But the fact remains that Israel is a state, largely a Jewish state, and it’s not going anywhere if Israelis can help it.
This is not to say that Israel has always acted above reproach. Clearly they have not and currently are not. But insisting that Israel, because they are largely viewed as the oppressor, has the unilateral responsibility for achieving long lasting peace in the region, is simply wrong-headed thinking which hasn’t worked and will continue to fail.
…1400 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed since the “ceasefire” by the IDF. Do you not understand that we aren’t asking for “lasting peace,” but instead we are asking for the slaughters to stop?
I do. I’m not arguing for more of the same.
…so then what are your objections here then?
They don’t. They have the responsibility to stop slaughtering, brutalizing, and violating the rights of civilians.
I don’t know how many more times I have to say that I agree that Israel has to stop the ongoing fuckery in Gaza and West Bank. I’m trying to address the larger point. But I think I’m done trying.
“I have brought you the argument; I’m under no obligation to provide you with the understanding of it.”
What larger point? Who are you arguing with? I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Are you disagreeing with anything I said?
You’re barking up the wrong tree if you think that the current administrations are going to solve this problem.
You’re barking up the wrong tree if you think someone like AOC is going to meaningfully impact the issue by simply imposing sanctions on Israel.
These are short-sighted solutions. They will return to killing each other, as they repeatedly have, until and unless the Palestinians accept that Israel is not going anywhere.
What’s to “return to”? Israel is doing mass slaughter (and other rights violations) now. Are you saying that will continue forever and/or there’s literally nothing any US president could possibly do about it?
Not forever. Possibly for our lifetime. Much as I’d like for it not to be so.
There is perhaps something someone can do. I don’t know why that has to be the US president.
I would welcome the leader of the EU taking on the responsibility for being the peace negotiator/broker, for example.
Really, anybody with the idea that peace won’t simply be achieved through unilateral sanctions and the view that it takes two to tango.
That sounds like everyone in this thread, AFAICT (and AOC, for that matter).
…since the ceasefire, Israel has killed 1400 people: Hamas had allegedly killed 4. Israel breaks the ceasefire daily: Hamas don’t break it at all.
In Gaza 1.98 million people, 94 percent of the population, need shelter, and assistance 1.2 million of those face critical or catastrophic shelter conditions.
A building collapsed last week, killing 21 people, including 11 children. That is going to happen more and more because Israel is not letting in construction materials.
This is an emergency situation.
But the Palestinian people are being left to rot.
And the idea that in the face of these daily atrocities, what’s needed is for the “Palestinians to accept that Israel is not going anywhere” is beyond farcical. That isn’t what will end this. There is no evidence that Israel, no matter what the government is in power, will stop on their own no matter what Palestinians do. That’s why outside intervention is required.
Because the President of the United States of America made himself the Chairman of the Gaza Board for Peace. That’s a lifetime appointment. This is on America now.
There is only one side that is credibly accused of genocide in Gaza, and there is only one side committing ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. It doesn’t take “two to tango” when it comes to genocide. You’ve got the people being genocided and the people doing the genocide. And the very least the international community can do is sanction those committing genocide.
Pull the other one. It’s got bells on.
I’ll leave you and Banquet_Bear to it then.
I really am out now.
No one ever said sanctions would get us peace. I said sanctions might be a tool that could help reduce the slaughter and violations of rights.
Each nation is sovereign. The leaders and citizens of that nation can do many things that outside sources can not. Did you not say, in this thread that there is nothing the Gazans can do for themselves? They can not organize and kick Hamas out, for example?
Look at the situation in Sudan- it almost makes Gaza look good.
What began in April 2023 as a power struggle between the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAF) and the paramilitary Rapid Support Forces (RSF) has become the world’s worst humanitarian disaster.
Should the US- or any other outside nation- intervene in their Civil war? Should the US- or other nations cut off aid to the Government there?
The US sends humanitarian aid to Sudan- and to Gaza. And it is a Good Thing for more wealthy nations to do so. But should outside nations meddle in the politics of a sovereign nation?
IMHO it is more of “No chance at all”.
And, I think that is wrong. Send humanitarian aid, but do not meddle.
Right.
Should the US meddle in the internal affairs of other nations? When the US is done meddling in Israel/Gaza, should we turn to Sudan? Then Afghanistan? then what- China?
Sanctions have been tried, and failed.
Sanctions against Israel, by the US? Cite?
Executive Order 14115—Imposing Certain Sanctions on Persons Undermining Peace, Security, and Stability in the West Bank
That was just two years ago.
Why limit it to just the USA, a dozen other nations have tried sanctions-
UK, France among 12 states backing sanctions on illegal Israeli settlements
Pushing back on Quicksilver’s insistence that “The Palestinians don’t want peace”, here is a link to some recent polling data.
Only 13% of Palestinians favor violent resistance to the Israeli occupation. 48% support a two State solution, with only 18% favoring a single Palestinian State from the river to the sea (most of the remainder favored a single binational State, with some wanting Palestine absorbed into Jordan and/or Egypt and some not sure). In the last two years, the percentage expressing approval of the October 9 atrocities has fallen from 45% to 15%.
So it doesn’t really look like Palestinian public opinion is the major obstacle to peace here.
In related completely unsurprising non-news, the Palestinian elections scheduled for next month have been postponed indefinitely, again. Maybe the world needs to be putting more pressure on Abbas and the Israelis to let the people vote already.
That cite’s polls are often at odds with the polls from PCPSR—the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research-
When a Western news story needs to quote some statistics about Palestinian public opinion, it’s very often PCPSR—the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research—that is found in the footnotes or hyperlinks.
To be fair, I think getting honest poll results in Gaza would be very hard.
That’s where the famous and viral line comes from that “almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack was correct”and that Hamas enjoyed a huge surge in popularity after the massacre.
The strange thing, though is that other pollsters, most notably AWRAD have polled completely different numbers.