…I’m about as pro-Palestinian as you can get on these boards, and I’m a woke-lefty.
And I have no desire for the nation of Israel to peacefully desolve. That isn’t the “ultimate goal.” I have zero opinion on Zionism. I don’t even know what the word means. Its obviously used differently by different people. It’s a debate I have no interest in having.
I think what Hamas did on October the 7th was an atrocity and a war crime and indefensible. And those responsible should have (and have been) punished. I think Israel had a right to defend themselves, and they had a right to retaliate.
I think that Israel is illegally occupying Palestine, and my thoughts are backed up by the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice that was released in 2024. I think that Israel needs to follow international law and end the occupation.
I think that what Israel is doing in the West Bank, including blatant violations of international law, is ethnic cleansing. I think the same for what they are doing right now in Southern Lebanon.
I think that what Israel is doing in Gaza is genocide. That view is backed up by almost all of the humanitarian agencies and NGOs on the ground, by multiple agencies with the UN, by a broad consensus of genocide scholars. Israel stands credibly accused of genocide in the International Court of Justice. Mr Benjamin Netanyahu has an arrest warrant issued by the International Criminal Court for the war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare and of intentionally directing an attack against the civilian population; and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts.
Israel run a network of what can only be called torture camps. They are holding thousands of Palestinians in inhumane conditions.
I think that Israel regularly commits war crimes and atrocities with impunity. When they sabotaged the supply chain and made those cellphones blow up in Lebanon, that was a terrorist attack. When they disguised themselves as doctors and nurses and extrajudicially executed patients, that was a warcrime. And yet even people on these boards defended these things.
I’ve said this before: the sheer scale of atrocities that Israel has committed over the last three years is so big that I could talk about a different atrocity a day in detail, and I’d still be going five years from now.
So my position is simple: Israel needs to follow international law, end the illegal occupation of Palestine and southern Lebanon, end the torture camps, and end apartheid. That’s my ultimate goal.
But I don’t speak for all "leftists. "I don’t think “the goal of peacefully dissolving the nation of Israel” is common amongst the left at all. But I think that some people do think this. Just like some “rightists” support the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. But it isn’t useful to make this a “left/right” thing. It isn’t useful to paint with a broad brush. And I’ve participated in nearly all of the Gaza threads since 2023, and what you suggest hasn’t been a sentiment raised in these threads much, if at all. It certainly isn’t a common sentiment here.
As for “river to the sea,” like Zionism, it is undeniably something that means different things to different people. I’m sure for some people it means the goal of dissolving Israel, peacefully or otherwise. But for many it means simply “a call for peace, equality, and an end to apartheid.”
Since the phrase was politicized, like the words “genocide,” “apartheid,” and “Nakba” have been, the usage of it has dropped dramatically. I would be surprised if it was the most commonly used chant at protests anymore. It certainly isn’t a phrase I use because I know it genuinely upsets people. But the fact that some people do use it isn’t evidence that they want the state of Israel destroyed.