New discussion thread for Israel/Gaza/West Bank (Hijacks tolerated)

[Banquet_Bear]

@Wesley_Clark

The fact that thousands of people were killed in a few days in South Sudan and you guys don’t care. Or the fact that Iran killed tens of thousands of protesters and you don’t care. or the fact that there are 6 or 7 genocides going on on earth and you don’t care.

…why do you think I don’t care? This thread is about Isreal/Gaza/West Bank. Why would I talk about other atrocities that my government isn’t funding and materially supporting in this thread?

Because that’s the difference here. America is funding and materially supporting the genocide of the Palestinian people. America defends Israel from consequences at the UN. They aren’t funding and materially supporting the atrocities in South Sudan or Iran.

So I reject your framing. It ignores the larger point. We should oppose injustice and atrocities no matter WHO is doing it. I condemn the atrocities committed by Hamas on October the 7th. I condemn the atrocities committed in South Sudan, I condemn the killings of civilians by the Iranian government, and I condemn the atrocities and warcrimes committed by the IDF in Gaza.

Can you do the same?

@Wesley_Clark

You hold Israel to insane standards but hold Palestine to no standards

What “insane standards?” Don’t systematically target and kill journalists? Don’t shoot children in the head? Don’t deliberately engineer a famine? Don’t systematically try and destroy the healthcare system?

I think we should hold both Isreal AND Palestine to the same standards. And I don’t think I’m asking too much.

@Wesley_Clark

This proves my point. Ro Khanna was mildly inconvenienced for an hour.

He was illegally detained at gunpoint and if that had happened in any other country, it would have been a major diplomatic incident that could have potentially risen to conflict.

And this “mild inconvenience” is a daily occurrence for Palestinians. That’s the point. Isreal restricts Palestinian freedom of movement.

Palestinian freedom of movement

It’s been going on for decades; it’s unacceptable; it’s an affront to fundamental human rights, and the fact you characterize it as “mildly inconvenient” is telling.

@Wesley_Clark

People like you don’t get to decide if what you do is bigotry.

“People like me?” That’s getting AWFULLY personal. If you want to call me a bigot, there is an entire forum where you can call me out if you like. But valid criticism of the state of Isreal isn’t bigotry.

@Wesley_Clark

Your victims decide that.

I don’t have any “victims”.

@Wesley_Clark

The fact that you hold the only Jewish nation on earth to higher standards than any other nation

This isn’t correct.

@Wesley_Clark

the fact that you excuse every crime committed against the only jewish nation on earth

This isn’t correct. I condemn the atrocities commited by Hamas on October the 7th. I condemn every single attack on civilians committed by Palestinians and Isrealis alike.

@Wesley_Clark

the fact that people promote ancient anti-semitic conspiracy theories about ‘the Jews secretly controlling the US government’.

I haven’t said ANYTHING about the ‘the Jews secretly controlling the US government’.

@Wesley_Clark

If a white supremacist fires a black guy for something trivial like being 1 minute late but lets white people do far worse things like steal or not show up at all, people rightly point out the injustice. Its the same thing here.

If Russia commits ethnic cleansing and genocide, people rightly condemn them. But if Israel does it?

That’s the actual injustice here. Israel should be treated exactly the same as any other nation that is actively committing ethnic cleansing and genocide. We shouldn’t fund them. We shouldn’t materially support them until they stop.

@Wesley_Clark

But the fact that Israel is held to a standard no nation on earth is

You keep saying this.

But the truth is we just want to hold Isreal to the same standards as everyone else. For example: how is this defensible?

Israel killed 15 Palestinian paramedics and rescue workers one by one, says UN

The IDF executed 15 paramedics and tried to cover it up. When exposed, the people responsible got a slap on the wrist. Why isn’t this treated like the warcrime that it is?

@Wesley_Clark

People like you don’t get to decide if you are a bigot, your victims make that decision.

I don’t have any victims.

@Wesley_Clark

From your source:

From ONE of my sources. I provided multiple sources.

@Wesley_Clark

But nine people being tortured is the worst injustice on earth?

The Wikipedia summary isn’t accurate. It’s why the primary sources at the bottom of the page are useful both for fuller context and fact checking. What was actually said:

@france24

She said nine people had allegedly died behind bars since October 7, according to Israeli sources.
…
Her organisation had managed to document “19 clear cases” of torture within the Israeli prison system just since October 7, including sexual violence, she told AFP.

Rights advocates denounce 'systemic abuse' in Israeli prisons

It isn’t just “nine people” being tortured. This particular organisation had documented 19 cases. But other organisations (and I included links to multiple reports) have documented countless others. Let’s not pretend that its only nine. Because almost without exception, every single Palestinian that has been held in detention tells stories of at the very least beatings and assaults and sometimes sexual humiliation, sometimes torture and rape. This has been going on for decades.

@Wesley_Clark

However why do you not care about the fact that far far worse things happen to many other people?

This thread is about Isreal/Gaza/West Bank. Of COURSE I care about other things happening in other places to other people. But if you want to talk about that then start another thread. This isn’t a defense of Israel’s countless atrocities and warcrimes.

[Banquet_Bear]

@ParallelLines

Then, for the last time, we don’t agree on any number of issues.

…do you not at least agree that Isreal is occupying Palestine illegally under international law?

[Banquet_Bear]

@Babale

The legal theory that when your latest war of annihilation against your neighbor fails once again, you don’t get to dictate terms.

…the illegal blockade of Gaza has been happening for decades before October the 7th.

[iiandyiiii]

Gazan civilians didn’t start the war, and yet they’re bearing the brunt of the conflict. Hamas isn’t close to being defeated. Israel has failed to defeat Hamas, and right now it’s mostly just causing death and suffering for civilians. It’s making peace harder, increasing the chances of future terrorism, and basically helping no one but Hamas and Israeli extremists.

So why continue it?

[Babale]

@Banquet_Bear

Why would I talk about other atrocities that my government isn’t funding and materially supporting in this thread?

Because that’s the difference here. America is funding and materially supporting the genocide of the Palestinian people. America defends Israel from consequences at the UN. They aren’t funding and materially supporting the atrocities in South Sudan or Iran.

Emphasis mine.

What do you mean, your government? Unless I am sorely mistaken, you are not American.

[Babale]

@Banquet_Bear

…the illegal blockade of Gaza has been happening for decades before October the 7th.

…Hamas, their predecessors, and before that the surrounding Arab states have been launching wars of annihilation against Israel for decades before October 7th.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Babale

…Hamas, their predecessors, and before that the surrounding Arab states have been launching wars of annihilation against Israel for decades before October 7th.

…the International Court of Justice has made it quite clear on the legality here. It’s an illegal occupation, an illegal blockade, and Israel’s claims for why they instituted the occupation and why they continue the illegal occupation and blockade don’t hold water.

It’s collective punishment of the Palestinian people. That’s a warcrime.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Babale

Emphasis mine.

What do you mean, your government? Unless I am sorely mistaken, you are not American.

…they are two different sentences in different paragraphs. My government is funding and materially supporting Israel, and so is America.

[Aspenglow]

Moderating:

@Wesley_Clark

The fact that thousands of people were killed in a few days in South Sudan and you guys don’t care. Or the fact that Iran killed tens of thousands of protesters and you don’t care. or the fact that there are 6 or 7 genocides going on on earth and you don’t care.

@Wesley_Clark

You view the conflict in Israel through the lens of white western oppressors vs black native oppressees.

@Wesley_Clark

Ro Khanna was mildly inconvenienced for an hour. the fact that to you, that is a global injustice while you ignore all the other injustices in the world tells me what I need to know about your priorities.

@Wesley_Clark

People like you don’t get to decide if what you do is bigotry.

@Wesley_Clark

People like you don’t get to decide if you are a bigot, your victims make that decision.

You need to stop with the “you” statements. You are personalizing this discussion far too much. Making your statements in this way are a personal attack on others who are participating.

Statements made in that way serve only to inflame a discussion that is already difficult and sensitive. Make your arguments without the personalization.

[DrDeth]

@iiandyiiii

Gazan civilians didn’t start the war, and yet they’re bearing the brunt of the conflict.

German Civilians didn’t start WW2 either. In fact, rarely do any civilians start wars. Governments start wars, and the civilians suffer for it.

@iiandyiiii

So why continue it?

Why wont Hamas disarm? That seems to be the sticking point. And there were claims made here that Hamas is stepping down , if so, why not disarm? Why brutally takes down a Anti-Hamas peaceful protest?

@Babale

Emphasis mine.

I have pointed out before the American Military aid is not funding the Gaza “occupation”. First of all, American aid is only about 15% of the IDF budget. Second, the biggest single dollar item is Missile defense, mostly vs Iran. If the US stopped aid to Israel tomorrow, the IDF could easily continue its operations- in Gaza and elsewhere. But Iran, etc would be able to get more Missiles into Israel.

The US is NOT funding operations in Gaza, except for perhaps a small percentage. The expensive Missile defense system is not part of Gaza operation.

@Babale

Hamas, their predecessors, and before that the surrounding Arab states have been launching wars of annihilation against Israel for decades before October 7th.

The blockade of Gaza started in 2007, right after Hamas took over. There were some restrictions before, like weapons.

[Babale]

@Banquet_Bear

…the International Court of Justice has made it quite clear on the legality here. It’s an illegal occupation, an illegal blockade, and Israel’s claims for why they instituted the occupation and why they continue the illegal occupation and blockade don’t hold water.

…Did the International Court of Justice make it “quite clear” that repeatedly launching wars of annihilation against Israel is “illegal”? And if so, what action did the International Court of Justice take to make it impossible for these groups to continue launching wars of annihilation against Israel? How effective were these actions?

Unless the International Court of Justice can answer these questions, why do you expect me or anyone else to care about its opinion?

[Banquet_Bear]

@Babale

…Did the International Court of Justice make it “quite clear” that repeatedly launching wars of annihilation against Israel is “illegal”?

…they didn’t characterise it that way no, but they were clear on Hamas warcrimes and atrocities most certainly.

@Babale

And if so, what action did the International Court of Justice take to make it impossible for these groups to continue launching wars of annihilation against Israel? How effective were these actions?

That isn’t the role of the court.

@Babale

Unless the International Court of Justice can answer these questions, why do you expect me or anyone else to care about its opinion?

Because we have international law precisely so that everyone gets held to the same standard. Iran, Syria, the United States, New Zealand, Samoa, Israel, and Palestine should all be treated the same.

When nations decide they don’t want to take part in the process, we get what we have now: Israel and America causing chaos in the Middle East and around the world. And we all suffer as a result. We have a petrol crisis because Israel and America didn’t follow international law. Prices are so ridiculously high now I can barely make ends meet.

I care because I think genocide and ethnic cleansing is bad and we should stop doing that. I think the persecution of the Palestinian people is a stain on humanity. I think we should stop making excuses for it and start making amends. And complying with international humanitarian law is a good place to start.

[Babale]

@Banquet_Bear

@Babale

And if so, what action did the International Court of Justice take to make it impossible for these groups to continue launching wars of annihilation against Israel? How effective were these actions?

That isn’t the role of the court.

In other words:

@Banquet_Bear

I care because I think genocide and ethnic cleansing is bad and we should stop doing that

Then Westerners should probably stop gaslighting the Palestinian people with the implication that if they rack up enough martyrs they will get an Arab Palestine from the River to the Sea so that their leaders stop launching wars with the express intent of ethnically cleansing the land between the river and the sea. As long as the stringing along of Palestinians for campist reasons continue, then I agree with you, we will not sea the Palestinians accept a two state solution in our lifetime. Why should they? They lose war after war, but their position at the negotiating table never worsens because of it; they always return to the demand of '67 borders and full right of return to Israel proper. Their incentives are clear: continue attacking.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Babale

Then Westerners should probably stop gaslighting the Palestinian people with the implication that if they rack up enough martyrs they will get an Arab Palestine from the River to the Sea so that their leaders stop launching wars with the express intent of ethnically cleansing the land between the river and the sea.

…If Israel thinks it has enough evidence for a case for genocide, then they can take it to the courts.

@Babale

As long as the stringing along of Palestinians for campist reasons continue, then I agree with you, we will not sea the Palestinians accept a two state solution in our lifetime. Why should they? They lose war after war, but their position at the negotiating table never worsens because of it; they always return to the demand of '67 borders and full right of return to Israel proper. Their incentives are clear: continue attacking.

Israel is illegally occupying Palestine, and that illegal occupation should end.

[Babale]

@Banquet_Bear

…If Israel thinks it has enough evidence for a case for genocide, then they can take it to the courts.

…why? We already established that going to the courts is less than worthless?

@Banquet_Bear

Israel is illegally occupying Palestine, and that illegal occupation should end.

Paleatinian attempts at revanchist reconquista of all the land between the river and the sea are illegal and should end.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Babale

…why? We already established that going to the courts is less than worthless?

Banquet_Bear:

…we haven’t actually established that.

@Babale

Paleatinian attempts at revanchist reconquista of all the land between the river and the sea are illegal and should end.

The International Court of Justice’s summary advisory opinion 2024 that I’ve cited upthread outlines the actual legal status of the occupied territories. I’ll defer to them.

[Babale]

@Banquet_Bear

…we haven’t actually established that.

OK, so if the ICJ pulled its head out of its ass long enough to find that October 7th was an attempt at ethnically cleansing Jews from Israel, what actions would it take to prevent that from happening again?

If your answer is “that’s not their job”, then I rest my case: worse than useless. I may as well take the case to the homeless guy down the street who thinks he’s King Solomon for all the good it would do me. Doing something about it isn’t his job, either, so it seems they are equally qualified.

@Banquet_Bear

I’ll defer to them.

And I won’t, because as noted, they mean nothing.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Babale

OK, so if the ICJ found that October 7th was an attempt at ethnically cleansing Jews from Israel, what actions would it take to prevent that from happening again?

…it wouldn’t take actions. It’s up to the states to take actions. The courts outline the legal position. In the first instance, normally the party is given an opportunity to correct its behavior. For example, Israel was ordered to “prevent the destruction of and ensure the preservation of evidence.”

But the ICJ doesn’t prosecute individuals. It handles legal disputes between nations. The ICC prosecutes individuals. And it has arrest warrants out for both Hamas leaders (although last I looked they had been withdrawn because they were dead) and for Netanyahu and Gallant.

@Babale

And I won’t, because as noted, they mean nothing.

The ICJ received written proceedings, scheduled oral proceedings, and deliberated and debated. Israel made submissions.

The courts said:

that Israel should put an end to that occupation, desist from creating new settlements, and evacuate those already established. It further concluded that where Palestinians have lost land and property, that Israel should pay reparations.

ICJ case on Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories

That’s the legal position as of right now.

[DrDeth]

@Babale

Unless the International Court of Justice can answer these questions, why do you expect me or anyone else to care about its opinion?

Those were mostly “Advisory Opinions”, which have no legal teeth, they are “non-binding”. So, as you said mostly worthless- except perhaps to sway public opinion. The International Court of Justice is a organ of the UN, and there are 193 members, of which about 1/4 are Moslem nations. , they are the largest voting block, I think.

[Banquet_Bear]

@DrDeth

Those were mostly “Advisory Opinions”, which have no legal teeth, they are “non-binding”. So, as you said mostly worthless- except perhaps to sway public opinion.

…I mean, the legal status of the West Bank and Gaza is settled. They are illegally occupied territories. That is beyond dispute now.