# New edition of D&D coming **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 11, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179 "2012-01-11T17:33:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/121 "2012-01-20T06:07:25Z")
> [@Brainiac4](#): > > Jragon, I’m trying not to point fingers at anyone in particular - every 4E thread I’ve been in has gone this way, and it gets tiresome. > > Relevant link, clearly capturing my position on the Edition Wars: [www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRZ1CYYIsCg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRZ1CYYIsCg) (fair warning, contains NSFW language) > Ah, but at least one of the quotes from the EN World articles implies that you can have characters from different editions in the same game: Hmm… I can see the Muchkins taking a whole new approach now, rather than relying on overpowered mechanics, they’ll make their character use 3rd Ed grappling rules, THAC0, 1st ed class requirements, etc just to make the DM not WANT to look up if he’s making shit up :p. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/122 "2012-01-20T14:55:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As for what they’re claiming for 5th edition, it looked to me like they were saying that different characters in the same party could be using different levels of the rules. The only way I can figure that they could do that would be through extensive use of “packages”: You can choose to be an out-of-the-box fighter or wizard (which has the full suite of abilities, but a predetermined set of them), or you can customize your fighter or wizard or whatever by choosing a different set of skills, proficiencies, etc. That’s going to be almost impossible to keep balanced, though. That’s my theory as well. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14680958&postcount=79](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14680958&postcount=79) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/123 "2012-01-20T15:03:09Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Hmm… I can see the Muchkins taking a whole new approach now, rather than relying on overpowered mechanics, they’ll make their character use 3rd Ed grappling rules, THAC0, 1st ed class requirements, etc just to make the DM not WANT to look up if he’s making shit up :p. Hey, that’s better than 3rd ed prestige class requirements, THAC0, and 1st ed grappling rules! ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/124 "2012-01-20T15:08:33Z")
> [@Brainiac4](#): > > The longest fight we’ve ever had in more than three years of play lasted 10 rounds. Most don’t last more than 5. And tracking number of rounds for cooldowns is a pain in the ass, so I find “per encounter” to have pretty much exactly the same effect you’re looking for, with less bookkeeping. Exactly this; Additionally, this is why combats don’t/shouldn’t (unless your DM is doing something really out of the ordinary/against guidelines) “consist of people using at will powers for 45 minutes” because at any level above 3, you have 2-3 other powers for use every encounter. Additionally, how is “everyone using an at will power” any different from “I hit him again”/“I throw darts at him because I don’t want to cast one of my three spells for the day”/“Backstab, whoo!”? Regarding the “rules vs flavor text” argument, I would suggest that, really, it’s all flavor text. does it REALLY matter that the warrior uses a “rage” system, while the wizard uses a “mana” system and the rogue uses an “energy” system? No, frankly, it doesn’t. Because you’re just calling the same thing (expendable resource) something else. Could there be different rules for these? Sure. Do they make people “Not casters”? absolutely not. The ONLY differences that buckling on a bunch of superfluous rules systems makes is A) People who like fiddling with rules and/or breaking them get more rules to fiddle with and/or break and B) You add a lot of imbalance and messy edge cases that benefit the people in A. People wonder why “spellcasters” were broken in 3rd edition need only look at the fact that they had all the fiddly systems and the other classes do not, and what I’ve read of Pathfinder doesn’t change that. This is why a lot of modern game systems eschew all this excessive rules crunch in favor of using a standardized ruleset for whatever the heck sort of abilities people want to have. I don’t really find it much of a stretch that a barbari can only dig down into his primal rage to scream loud enough to knock people over ever so often. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/125 "2012-01-20T17:05:31Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I don’t think the point of the system is that Gamera can say “I’m a second ed wizard” and mlees can say “I’m a first ed rogue,” I think the point is so the GM, or rather, the group of players as an entity can say “we’re using second ed armor class and third ed diplomacy with fourth ed encounter based powers.” > > ETA: I certainly didn’t mean to act like what I was saying is fact if I’m part of the group you’re addressing, everything I said above is just my opinion about what games did well and poorly. If somebody likes the system, great, I was just saying what I didn’t like about it. The tabletop boardgame _Battletech_ came out with “expansions” that were optional. The original ruleset was fairly basic, with limited amounts of weapons and stuff. Then they came out with the idea of “Star League” quality stuff, and then “Clan Invasion” stuff, and then stuff more advanced (technologically) then that. It was supposed to be backward compatible, but I am not sure, but I think some inconsistances still creeped in. Anywho, if you and your playgroup wanted to restrict yourself to 3025 level tech (the basic ruleset), you could. Perhaps they are designing 5thEd. the same way: Basic ruleset, Advanced/Experienced, and Prestige/Epic. The GM could run a group of mixed ruleset characters (my warrior created under the basic ruleset only, with your wizard using the expanded/advanced ruleset). And maybe when I am comfortable with the Basic rules, and can “upgrade” my warrior with advanced ruleset stuff later on by adding additional skills/feats/equipment. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/126 "2012-01-20T21:14:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Hey, that’s better than 3rd ed prestige class requirements, THAC0, and 1st ed grappling rules! And 2nd edition unarmed combat, too: That puts 3rd edition grappling to shame. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/127 "2012-01-20T21:38:59Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And 2nd edition unarmed combat, too: That puts 3rd edition grappling to shame. Ah, yes. 2nd Edition grappling was what enabled a pack of kobolds to take down a party of high-level adventurers. Well, that, and jars full of green slime. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/128 "2012-01-20T22:01:01Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > Additionally, how is “everyone using an at will power” any different from “I hit him again”/“I throw darts at him because I don’t want to cast one of my three spells for the day”/“Backstab, whoo!”? I tried to run a 4th ed. campaign when the rules first came out. After about three sessions, my players voted to drop it. One of my players said he didn’t like it, because his fighter kept doing the same two things over and over. I said, “If this was 3.5, you’d only be able to do _one_ thing: swing your sword!” A few months ago, I finally got to _play_ in a 4th ed campaign. I was playing a first level fighter. And goddamn it, it really \*was \*frustrating that I kept doing the same two things. As I figure it, the problem is that the 4th edition moves are too specific, to the extent that it hinders the imagination. “Longsword +8/+2” doesn’t look like much on a character sheet, but in your head it can be just about anything: running your enemy through with the point, slashing at his neck, cutting him off at the knees. The generic nature of the stat block gives you free range to create your own visuals to go with it. In 4th edition, you have these specific moves: “Steel Serpent Strike” or “Brute Attack,” with specific flavor text. Rules-wise, you have more options, because you can make different specific attacks with different results. But flavor-wise, it feels more constrained. I’m doing the attack that’s printed on the card, and that’s it. There’s not as much room to play with what your character is doing. I still had a lot of fun playing the game, and I don’t think it’s a bad system. But I think that’s a big part of what makes it feel more like a tactical board game, and less like a role-playing game. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/129 "2012-01-21T02:27:59Z")
**Killer** , I am just curious about if you feel that D&D 4th powers are like feats? When I mentioned what you described a few years back, some DM told me they just ignore the flavor text outright, and come up with whatever suits the situation best. ---
**Author:** ![Brainiac4](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brainiac4/32/3534_2.png) [@Brainiac4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brainiac4)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/130 "2012-01-21T04:55:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > A few months ago, I finally got to _play_ in a 4th ed campaign. I was playing a first level fighter. And goddamn it, it really \*was \*frustrating that I kept doing the same two things. That seems odd to me - as a first level, you have at least five options you can use every round, two you can use once in each encounter and one daily. The five at-will options: - At-Will attack 1 - At-Will attack 2 - Basic Melee Attack - Charge (assuming you can move 2 spaces) - Bull Rush I totally get where you’re coming from with the flavor text on powers constraining the imagination; this is a big reason why my group mostly ignores the flavor text and concentrates on laying their own flavor over the mechanics. I think it helps that most of us played a lot of Champions, and got used to thinking of ways to make the rules bits fit into the character concept. I think the flavor text is in there to try to make it feel less like a tactical boardgame; unfortunately I think it has had the opposite effect from the intended one for a big chunk of the audience. ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/131 "2012-01-21T09:47:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It feels too much like computer games where you have an “exploration mode” and a “combat mode”, or whatever. The interesting thing is that encounter powers came from 3rd edition, not from video games. Barbarian rage is a once per encounter ability in 3e, and it worked so well that way they extended the idea into the Tome of Battle system, which then got refined into 4e’s system. Also, I’m always amused at the suggestion (I’ve seen it so many times) that putting powers on a [cooldown](http://www.wowwiki.com/Cooldown) after use would be less videogamey than encounter powers. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/132 "2012-01-22T21:50:29Z")
> [@Brainiac4](#): > > Relevant link, clearly capturing my position on the Edition Wars: [www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRZ1CYYIsCg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRZ1CYYIsCg) (fair warning, contains NSFW language) I was going to post that if no one else did. Dungeon Bastard is great. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/133 "2012-01-23T00:51:28Z")
> [@Brainiac4](#): > > The five at-will options: > > - At-Will attack 1 > - At-Will attack 2 Okay tough guy, what if no one you’re fighting is called Will? What then? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/134 "2012-01-23T06:16:49Z")
> [@Chipacabra](#): > > The interesting thing is that encounter powers came from 3rd edition, not from video games. Barbarian rage is a once per encounter ability in 3e, and it worked so well that way they extended the idea into the Tome of Battle system, which then got refined into 4e’s system. Pardon? Do you mean straight 3e or 3.5? Because in 3.5 it’s certainly not per encounter. > **[Barbarian :: d20srd.org](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm)** And given the market results of 4e, I don’t see how “worked so well” applies. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/135 "2012-01-23T14:43:32Z")
> [@Brainiac4](#): > > That seems odd to me - as a first level, you have at least five options you can use every round, two you can use once in each encounter and one daily. > > The five at-will options: > > - At-Will attack 1 > - At-Will attack 2 > - Basic Melee Attack > - Charge (assuming you can move 2 spaces) > - Bull Rush The basic melee attacks in 4E are universally inferior to your at-wills (assuming you chose at-wills to match your primary stats) and most classes have at-wills that are usable in place of basics. I don’t even bother to write down the stats for my melee basic in the two 4E games I’m in. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/136 "2012-01-23T14:50:15Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > Exactly this; Additionally, this is why combats don’t/shouldn’t (unless your DM is doing something really out of the ordinary/against guidelines) “consist of people using at will powers for 45 minutes” because at any level above 3, you have 2-3 other powers for use every encounter. > > Additionally, how is “everyone using an at will power” any different from “I hit him again”/“I throw darts at him because I don’t want to cast one of my three spells for the day”/“Backstab, whoo!”? It’s not different…but in AD&D, fights didn’t last for 45 minutes. Monsters and PCs just didn’t have as many hit points, as a rule. Your experiences are almost surely different from mine, of course. For one thing, I haven’t played a 4E game above level 6 yet, so I haven’t experienced having a wide selection of encounter/daily powers so far. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/137 "2012-01-23T14:56:28Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > It’s not different…but in AD&D, fights didn’t last for 45 minutes. Monsters and PCs just didn’t have as many hit points, as a rule. In addition, it was a lot easier to instantly kill something with no recourse. In 3.x at least, you usually got to make a save and even then it’s rare that something will kill you outright. ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/138 "2012-01-24T02:17:32Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > Pardon? Do you mean straight 3e or 3.5? Because in 3.5 it’s certainly not per encounter. > > [Barbarian :: d20srd.org](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm) > > And given the market results of 4e, I don’t see how “worked so well” applies. It’s also limited per day, but the limit of once per encounter is what I was referring to. And the market results of 4e is that it made buckets of money, primarily via D&D Insider. And Insider isn’t actually very good (It has had some… issues with development.) If they manage to make a properly integrated version of Insider for 5e, and actually finish making all of the tools, they’ll do fine. Remember, they’re not making a 5e because 4e was a failure. If 4e failed, they would just drop it entirely. They’re making 5e because 4e was _successful._ ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/139 "2012-01-24T14:50:11Z")
> [@Chipacabra](#): > > It’s also limited per day, but the limit of once per encounter is what I was referring to. And the market results of 4e is that it made buckets of money, primarily via D&D Insider. And Insider isn’t actually very good (It has had some… issues with development.) If they manage to make a properly integrated version of Insider for 5e, and actually finish making all of the tools, they’ll do fine. > > Remember, they’re not making a 5e because 4e was a failure. If 4e failed, they would just drop it entirely. They’re making 5e because 4e was _successful._ They’re making 5e this soon because Pathfinder outsold Dungeons and Dragons for the last two quarters. They broke their fanbase, and they know it. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179/140 "2012-01-24T14:54:15Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > They’re making 5e this soon because Pathfinder outsold Dungeons and Dragons for the last two quarters. They broke their fanbase, and they know it. Indeed, I’ve had every edition before 4th, and I don’t have either 4th nor pathfinder, but I am considering Pathfinder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-edition-of-d-d-coming/609179.md?page=8)