# New evidence against an historical Jesus **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832 "2013-10-10T00:16:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/1 "2013-10-10T00:16:41Z")
This [press release](http://uk.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11201273.htm) was making the rounds in my Facebook feed: > [@](#): > > **Ancient Confession Found: ‘We Invented Jesus Christ’** > > American Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill will be appearing before the British public for the first time in London on the 19th of October to present a controversial new discovery: ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove, according to Atwill, that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they fabricated the entire story of Jesus Christ. > > Although to many scholars his theory seems outlandish, and is sure to upset some believers, Atwill regards his evidence as conclusive and is confident its acceptance is only a matter of time. > > Atwill asserts that Christianity did not really begin as a religion, but a sophisticated government project, a kind of propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire. “Jewish sects in Palestine at the time, who were waiting for a prophesied warrior Messiah, were a constant source of violent insurrection during the first century,” he explains. “When the Romans had exhausted conventional means of quashing rebellion, they switched to psychological warfare. They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system. That’s when the ‘peaceful’ Messiah story was invented. Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to ‘give onto Caesar’ and pay their taxes to Rome.” > > Was Jesus based on a real person from history? “The short answer is no,” Atwill insists, “in fact he may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there’s simply nothing left.” Interestingly enough, it was [this column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/518/did-jesus-really-exist-and-whats-with-the-shroud-of-turin) where Cecil took on the task of straightening the dope on whether Jesus actually lived, was my introduction to The Straight Dope column, so this is relevant to my interests. I was of the opinion that the evidence that Jesus Christ did exist (the man, not as the Jewish messiah) and though it was relatively settled historically. I also think that I have seen in recent years an uptick of Jesus Denialism, if you will. Some subsets of people - first Jews and then hardcore Atheists - started making claims that Jesus never existed. I even got into an argument with one of the latter types online, even using TSD as a cite, and it was like arguing with a conspiracy theorist. Still, does this new evidence hold water? Enough to invalidate the evidence that we did have which prompted Cecil to echo historians views that “whether or not JC was truly the Son of God, he was probably the son of somebody” as the master put it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/2 "2013-10-10T00:23:51Z")
[Mr. Atwill has been pushing this idea for a few years now.](http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Atwill/e/B001K8GW3K/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_pop_1) ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/3 "2013-10-10T00:27:11Z")
Why is he waiting till the 19th? Why is he presenting it to the public and not to specialist scholars who could judge the document’s authenticity? Where did he find the document, and what exactly is it? I’m not a believer and have no real stake in whether Jesus existed or not, but Mr. Atwill has all the tells of an attention seeking fraud, rather than an actual scholar. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/4 "2013-10-10T00:28:46Z")
He existed. I was there. And all I got was this lousy shroud. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/5 "2013-10-10T00:31:55Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > [snip…]Where did he find the document, and what exactly is it?[…snip] Next to his perpetual motion machine powered on angel flatus. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/6 "2013-10-10T00:32:51Z")
> [@](#): > > He existed. I was there. And all I got was this lousy shroud. Pix, or it didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/7 "2013-10-10T00:39:40Z")
[Here is one (hostile) review of Atwill’s theory](http://www.tektonics.org/books/csmessrvw.html). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/8 "2013-10-10T00:40:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Pix, or it didn’t happen. [That’s me, third from the left, telling the waiter I’m too stuffed for dessert.](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1XdXsj_1Avg/TV1__8Dv4xI/AAAAAAAAAF4/b_F7niTglts/s1600/The-Last-Supper.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/9 "2013-10-10T00:41:00Z")
I’m not sure I am reading this right. I had the impression that he claimed to be in possession of an authentic document, the original thing, from the first century c.e.? Extraordinary. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/10 "2013-10-10T00:42:12Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Why is he waiting till the 19th? Why is he presenting it to the public and not to specialist scholars who could judge the document’s authenticity? Where did he find the document, and what exactly is it? The 19th appears to be just a speech on the topic. He has been pushing this idea for several years. Even Jcrackpots need to pay their bills and a speaking engagement helps in that way. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/11 "2013-10-10T00:43:18Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Still, does this new evidence hold water? Enough to invalidate the evidence that we did have which prompted Cecil to echo historians views that “whether or not JC was truly the Son of God, he was probably the son of somebody” as the master put it? What new evidence? It hasn’t been presented yet. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/12 "2013-10-10T00:47:34Z")
His conspiracy story is very nearly as miraculous as the one I heard in Sunday School. And talk about your _deus ex machina_… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/13 "2013-10-10T01:12:54Z")
What would happen if it turned out to be true? ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/14 "2013-10-10T01:21:21Z")
I am an atheist and my reaction nonetheless is similar to what I have towards most conspiracy theories on any topic that I have run across - this “sophisticated government project” was kept secret SO well that word didn’t leak out about it way back then? I’d have to see **much** more evidence from multiple sources before I would even consider the possibilty of thinking about whether I might ponder the likely validity of it. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/15 "2013-10-10T01:29:21Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > I am an atheist and my reaction nonetheless is similar to what I have towards most conspiracy theories on any topic that I have run across - this “sophisticated government project” was kept secret SO well that word didn’t leak out about it way back then? I’d have to see **much** more evidence from multiple sources before I would even consider the possibilty of thinking about whether I might ponder the likely validity of it. Seconded. Also, I’m not an expert, but I’d think the Romans would stick to regular warfare rather than the psychological type. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/16 "2013-10-10T01:36:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [That’s me, third from the left, telling the waiter I’m too stuffed for dessert.](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1XdXsj_1Avg/TV1__8Dv4xI/AAAAAAAAAF4/b_F7niTglts/s1600/The-Last-Supper.jpg) Looks to me like you’re refusing to pay your part of the check. Let me guess - you were the Mr. Pink of the apostles. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > What would happen if it turned out to be true? Nothing. Christians have ignored much harder science in defense of far more minor points of theology. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/17 "2013-10-10T01:44:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Looks to me like you’re refusing to pay your part of the check… An unlikely interpretation, everyone knows Jews hate to argue. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/18 "2013-10-10T01:55:08Z")
Christians often ask why atheists don’t hold other ancient documents to the same standard as they do the Gospels. The answer is that we do — we accept mundane stuff about X was appointed governor or whatever, but not that the Emperor was divine. IMO this alleged document would fall into the category of an extraordinary claim, which would require very, very strong evidence to believe. Even if it’s proven genuine, i.e. it was actually written by powerful Romans in the first century, that doesn’t make it true — it might be a disinformation campaign for some reason that is lost to us. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/19 "2013-10-10T02:15:46Z")
I planted the (as yet) unrevealed document upon arriving in that century after I finish inventing my (as yet) unfinished time machine in hopes to nip the horrendous religious fallout that follows in the bud; when in fact all I’ve seem to have done is only muddy the waters! I’m gonna need more plutonium… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/20 "2013-10-10T02:17:38Z")
So, you’ve gone fission, then? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832.md?page=2)