# New evidence against an historical Jesus **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832 "2013-10-10T00:16:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/21 "2013-10-10T02:19:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What would happen if it turned out to be true? Stwike him, Centuwion! ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/22 "2013-10-10T02:25:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What would happen if it turned out to be true? “God set this up as a test of faith.” ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/23 "2013-10-10T02:27:42Z")
> [@Joseph Atwill](#): > > Jewish sects in Palestine at the time, who were waiting for a prophesied warrior Messiah, were a constant source of violent insurrection during the first century. When the Romans had exhausted conventional means of quashing rebellion, they switched to psychological warfare. They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system. That’s when the ‘peaceful’ Messiah story was invented. Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to ‘give onto Caesar’ and pay their taxes to Rome. Sounds like a wacky Conspiracy Theory to me. Just because it’s an anti-Christian and/or atheistic wacky Conspiracy Theory doesn’t mean I’m buying it without the proverbial extraordinary evidence. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/24 "2013-10-10T02:40:52Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > …without the proverbial extraordinary evidence. Don’t think for a second that you got away with that. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/25 "2013-10-10T02:47:17Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Even Jcrackpots need to pay their bills and a speaking engagement helps in that way. Hahahaaaaa!! Ahaaaaahaahahahaaaaaaaaa! Haaaaaaaaa! I’m dying here! Hahahaaaaa! [cough][choke] Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Hahaaaaa!! 🙂 Even though, sadly, that thread was closed, this completely made up for it. Thanks **tomndebb**. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/26 "2013-10-10T02:59:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What would happen if it turned out to be true? A lot more people buying ovens with a Sabbath mode 😕 ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/27 "2013-10-10T03:39:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, you’ve gone fission, then? Apparently I haven’t visited 2015 yet. Typical me! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/28 "2013-10-10T04:23:38Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > He existed. I was there. And all I got was this lousy shroud. Auction it. There’s a sucker born every minute. In fact, there’s a **Messiah** born every minute, not that there’s any difference; there ain’t. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/29 "2013-10-10T04:37:59Z")
The more respectable Jesus-myth types [tend](http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_atwill.htm) to [scoff](http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_atwill.htm) at Atwill. ---
**Author:** ![Stalky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@Stalky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stalky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/30 "2013-10-10T04:46:32Z")
I have said it other places on the board, even without a supposed additional historical document there are plenty of reasons to conclude that Jesus is, at least potentially, literary. When you strip out of the Gospels all of the stories and sermons the can be shown to be related to other earlier works and traditions, when you remove accounts that are form critically non-biographical, there is basically nothing left of a historical account. If a real first century Jew was at the heart of Christianity then the one thing we can know about him is that, using our current documents, we can know absolutely nothing about him at all. That does not mean he can be shown to definitely not to exist, but there are certainly plausible ways that the writings could have arisen without requiring a historical figure. But I also have to agree with the consensus of the thread. The document is likely nothing, or a forgery. You see stunts like this an awful lot. [These](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1371290/70-metal-books-Jordan-cave-change-view-Biblical-history.html) were a big buzz about a year ago, but were promptly shown to be [fakes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Lead_Codices). Anything for a quick buck, it seems. Holy relics are big business. ---
**Author:** ![Stalky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@Stalky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stalky)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/31 "2013-10-10T04:48:29Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > The more respectable Jesus-myth types [tend](http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_atwill.htm) to [scoff](http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_atwill.htm) at Atwill. Exactly. If he is onto something it will come out in the wash, but expect more of the same. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/32 "2013-10-10T04:50:51Z")
Best evidence WRT Jesus is [here](http://www.amazon.com/Zealot-Life-Times-Jesus-Nazareth/dp/140006922X). Spoiler: His agenda was political, **not** spiritual. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/33 "2013-10-10T05:52:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Best evidence WRT Jesus is [here](http://www.amazon.com/Zealot-Life-Times-Jesus-Nazareth/dp/140006922X). Spoiler: His agenda was political, **not** spiritual. How can a Muslim write about Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/34 "2013-10-10T06:22:16Z")
So Romans invent Jesus to control the Jews and instead they convert the Roman Empire and lots of Europe. That’s got to be the biggest plan backfire ever. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/35 "2013-10-10T08:33:19Z")
I’ve always wondered if Paul was a mole. I mean, a persecutor suddenly has a ‘vision’ on some remote road and starts re-writing christianity. Right! Bit suspicious, innit? Possibly there were more agents ‘working the Jews’. Or working on the Real-Early-Christians, a violent messianic movement, that successfuly got subverted to a meek movement, by the Roman Secret Service. Fun how this musing might be, I think it unlikely to the extreme that any writing, documenting the ruse, would have survived since the 1st century. ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/36 "2013-10-10T08:42:52Z")
This name is ascribed to a real person by the name of Jmmanuel who was the 5th prophet out of a series of 7 and before Mohammed and Billy Meier who was fathered by an extraterrestrial person by the name of Gabriel. Quote “However, it indicated that his original name was not Jesus, but had been Immanuel” unquote. [http://tjresearch.info/overview.htm](http://tjresearch.info/overview.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/37 "2013-10-10T12:17:03Z")
J find your jdeas jnteresting, and J wish to subscribe to your newsletter. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/38 "2013-10-10T12:21:02Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > This name is ascribed to a real person by the name of Jmmanuel who was the 5th prophet out of a series of 7 and before Mohammed and Billy Meier who was fathered by an extraterrestrial person by the name of Gabriel. > > Quote “However, it indicated that his original name was not Jesus, but had been Immanuel” unquote. > > [Overview of the TJ\>](http://tjresearch.info/overview.htm) That document is a silly, hate-filled fraud, and the man who “discovered” it is a lying loony. ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/39 "2013-10-10T12:42:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That document is a silly, hate-filled fraud, and the man who “discovered” it is a lying loony. Oh here we go again all that without a shred of proof or evidence to back up your claim against Billy Meier Jesus is a fictional character created by the pharisees who inserted this erroneous term to the bible and wrongly attributed this name to a real person known as Jmmanuel ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832/40 "2013-10-10T12:45:45Z")
The headline on that article is pretty misleading. We go from [QUOTE=The headline] Ancient Confession Found: ‘We Invented Jesus Christ’ [/QUOTE] To [QUOTE=Within the article] Atwill maintains he can demonstrate that “the Roman Caesars left us a kind of puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations, and the solution to that puzzle is ‘We invented Jesus Christ, and we’re proud of it.’” [/QUOTE] So I guess that means, **elucidator** , that there is no document. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-evidence-against-an-historical-jesus/670832.md?page=3)